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Featured we have no free will - prove me wrong!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I already said that #2 was NOT an expression of free will.

    Number 4, however, is. There are innumerable times in my life that it would have been relatively easy for me to have done what was right, but I just didn't feel like putting forth the moral effort of will. Other times, it took great moral effort of will, but I managed to do what was right. This is free will.
     
  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yup. Although it may only take one factor to have been different so as to affect the outcome.

    Why?

    Yup.

    No. As I said before; will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires. and Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences. There are controlling influences that make the will do A rather than B.


    Those factors (causes) that brought on the turning right event rather than a left turning event. For the left turning event to have taken place, one or some of the cause that led up to the right turning event would have to had been different. But they weren't, so the left turning event could never have taken place. Think of it as

    1+ 8- 6+2+4+9-4-2+10+23 = 45
    To arrive at some other number, at least one of the other numbers would have to be different, if none of them are then the outcome has to be 45.

    .
     
  3. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    My mistake. Sorry, but I couldn't help it. ;)

    Now you're obviously using "will" in the sense of determination, rather than as the capacity to act decisively on one's desires. It doesn't fly.

    .
     
  4. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    Because you are just you. You are not "could a been different" you. The world is just the world, not a "could have been different" world.

    Will is the capacity of acting on one's desires. Free will is not something other than will. The context for will being free--the context for "no controlling influences"--is no godly influence, no fatal influence, and no random influence.

    It's not you acting on your yourself (if that were even possible).
     
  5. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    What about an 'unhappened' cause?
    Not that I'm opposed to the notion that the universe 'caused' itself, would you call that free-willed self-determination? :p
     
  6. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is the whole point; someone who believes in free will would say that he could have acted differently under the same circumstances.

    There are many factors that influence your decisions, (desires is just one of many factors) the determinist would argue that those factors fully determine your choices, while the “free willist” would argue that at least sometimes these factors influence your choices but they don’t fully determine them. In other words, if I am hungry I am more likely to eat a hamburger rather than a salad, but I would still have the ability to choose a salad if I will it.
     
  7. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Oh, I was going to quote Daniel Dennett....at horrendous length. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    I'm not sure there is any doing that. Free will clearly does not exist, as there are too many factors that too easily dismiss it for such a thing to exist. What we have, at best, if we have it at all and not just the illusion of it, is a Constrained Will.
     
  9. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    You are definitely on the right track, but I think only need to add the impact of the inherent feedback that the human mind undergoes. And feedback is what allows for what are know as "chaotic" systems. Thus something I did in the past (whether through "free will" or not) will also have been observed by me internally. And that observation from the past is also part of the decision-making process.

    Thus, if I have to make a choice between vanilla ice cream and pralines'n'cream, I'll probably choose lowfat yogurt, since my belts just a little tighter than I like.
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    There are sufficient means that are basically manipulating someone, with the manipulated not realizing they are being manipulated and acting freely of their own accord. I assume you are at least familiar with motivational interviewing, one such technique to guide someone along a path without this person realizing they are being prompted and lead down a specific path (not often realizing it, anyways).
     
  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    One point about free will I think we should be aware of: if we do not have it, then everyone of us must instantly stop blaming ourselves and others for anything at all that happens, including school massacres and terrorism, and also stop taking credit for anything, including "religious faith." Which obviously makes, us at least logically, ineligible for either punishment of reward, either on earth or in heaven.
     
  13. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    It's funny, because the scenario I described would, to me, say I have no choice in the matter at all: it is randomly done and not at all by me!
     
  14. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Why not?
     
  15. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    I think your argument is based on an assumption that is not true: that consciousness is a creation of the physical brain. From my study of the paranormal I believe consciousness can exist without a physical brain. 'What Consciousness Is', is one of the great mysteries of science today.
     
  16. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    I don't think that is necessarily true. If you do something, you did it. An electric current has no choice in where or how it will flow, it just does, and it still does it. Dr. Martin Luther King was still a civil rights activist regardless, and Ted Bundy was still a violent serial killer regardless. Blame, fault, reward, punishment, they would have to be approached differently if we understood today we have no free will, but actions have consequences, actions have reactions. That part will never change regardless of how the free will debate is concluded.
     
  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Exactly! which is why many Christians automatically dismiss the possibility of no free will. Without free will the notion of Sin and Salvation falls flat. And you're also correct that without free will blame and praise are also meaningless.

    .
     
  18. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    over thinking a pending action could kill the motivation
    or get it twisted so the result is something else

    maybe what you are not sure of would be.....you're lack of self control

    it's not that you don't have free will......you do

    maybe you're just not good at it
     
  19. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    are you speaking of the pre-conditioning, or propensity to turn right vs less likely left?
     
  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    I'm familiar I know in the medical field especially dealing with patients that need be placed on holds we clinicians (and in the past have been guilty of this) tend to guide answers e.g. "You want to hurt yourself right?" So they can illicit a desired answer. Now you could argue that freewill is suspended based on this circumstance.
     
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