1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured we have no free will - prove me wrong!

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,687
    Ratings:
    +1,439
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    its basically the schrodinger thought experiment. all choices, potentials are possible but only when a choice is made is there realization, actualization.


    nothing ventured, nothing lost/gained.
     
    #61 Fool, Jan 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  2. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,783
    There could be innumerable reason why I made that particular choice. Or I could have used my free will to choose to allow the decision to be made by the flip of a coin. Even if I do allow a random flip of a coin to determine my direction, I have STILL employed my free will in deciding to abide by the coin flip. Just because there may be factors involved as to why a person makes a specific decision, the existence of those factors don't mean that a choice isn't freely being made.

    Again, if I had no free will in turning right that suggests that it would have been impossible for me to have turned left and that simply isn't the case.
     
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,687
    Ratings:
    +1,439
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    because you can, but you don't have to. if you don't, it's only a potential, if you do it's an actual, real.
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,278
    Ratings:
    +798
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It all depends on many factors.
    1. The merits of A and B
    2. Unconscious or conscious psychological reasons
    3. My mood
    4. Whether one is tempting me morally and my will to resist
    5. A bit of randomness
    6. My "wisdom of the moment" in weighing the options
    Some of these things speak of the freeness of my will (such as 4), and others do not (such as 2), and still others are more or less free choices but don't necessarily involve will (such as 1).

    I remember once when I was in my early 20's I was weighing my possible responses to a problem, and made my decision. Then, just as I was about to act, a conversation about free will flitted through my brain, and I wondered if I were freely choosing to act. I deliberately chose what I thought to be a rotten choice just to show to myself that I did indeed have free will. Once was enough.
     
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,694
    Ratings:
    +11,224
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Really? Are you sure? Maybe your desire to turn right was already determined.
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,056
    Ratings:
    +10,225
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Right. And those are what made you choose A over B. For B to be chosen the factors would have had to been different, but they weren't, so you had to choose A. Your will was not free to choose B because of the controlling factors that favored A.

    .
     
  7. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,694
    Ratings:
    +11,224
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Well, this depends on what you mean by the word 'choosing'. If that 'choosing' is a process in your brain, then there *is* choosing. But it still might be determined by previous events.
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,056
    Ratings:
    +10,225
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    So why didn't you use a flip of a coin? Because the other factors overrode such an option and caused you do whatever you did.


    Yup.
    Which brings us right back too the issue at question: why not?

    .
     
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,694
    Ratings:
    +11,224
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    So there was some type of coin flip, completely independent of everything before, that caused you to turn left or right?

    So, it wasn't your previous desire to turn right? it wasn't the slight bit of discomfort in your left arm? It wasn't a feeling that maybe turning right might be fun?

    There was *nothing* prior to your turning that determined your choice? Not even anything internal to you?

    Hmm...that's scary.
     
  10. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,694
    Ratings:
    +11,224
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Hmm...it seems to me *these* are the reasons you chose one way or the other. They are what determines your choice. In the sense of 'free will' that is independent of 8anything* prior to the choice, these show you don't have such free will.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,369
    Ratings:
    +516
    Religion:
    Christian
    When a person gets up in the morning, That person has the free will, to either stay inside their house or go outside.

    A person who can drive has the free will to drive or walk.
    A person has the free will to choose for themselves on what time they want to go to bed.
    A person has the free will, to choose when they want to take their next shower.

    A person has the free will when they want to get out of bed.

    Whatever a person does, they have their free will to do so.

    As no action can be done, without first making the free will of choice to do so.

    The cause will only come after a person makes the choice first, by their free will.

    When a person makes their choice it is by their free will to make that choice and then the action comes.
    No action or cause can happen until a person makes that choice by their free will to do it.
     
  12. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,119
    Ratings:
    +6,345
    No, those are you choosing A or B. For the factors to be different, you would have to be different (different circumstance, different learning, different preferences, etc.), which of course defies reality, as well as belief. There is no "could have been different" that makes will free. Will is free in the choosing.
     
  13. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,870
    Ratings:
    +3,131
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    Identify the causes of you creating this thread.
     
  14. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,783
    And MAYBE I'm a talking frog who wears dentures... but I have absolutely no evidence to suggest that I am. There's also absolutely no evidence that someone or something predetermined that I would have to right and could not turn left.

    Who or what are you suggesting determined that I would have no choice in the matter?
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,687
    Ratings:
    +1,439
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    now you understand what it feels like for a new born not to know, or not to have prior experience, and still make a choice. as alan watts said there are infinite possibilities but you got to choose; otherwise there is no reality. you must make a choice to have experience. in having experience you have knowledge, in having knowledge you can make a more informed choice. as the form becomes more informed it becomes more knowing. faith/belief is necessary for reality to be known


    And you would, naturally, as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes(choices). You would have every kind of pleasure you could conceive. And after several nights of 75 years of total pleasure each you would say “Well that was pretty great”. But now let’s have a surprise, let’s have a dream which isn’t under control, where something is gonna happen to me that I don’t know what it's gonna be.

    And you would dig that and would come out of that and you would say “Wow that was a close shave, wasn’t it?”. Then you would get more and more adventurous and you would make further- and further-out gambles what you would dream. And finally, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today.


     
    #75 Fool, Jan 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,056
    Ratings:
    +10,225
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    And how factors 4 and 2 turn out are likewise dependent on their causes. They can't turn out to be other than how they're caused to.

    .

    .
     
  17. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,783
    So maybe I DID use my free will to choose to let a flip of the coin make the determination. Even if I didn't choose to flip a coin, the factors themselves did not determine my choice... it was my choice to use those factors in order to make my decision.

    Please do enlighten me as to what would have made it impossible for me to turn left?

    Why did I not turn left? Because I exercised my free will and chose to turn right. I could just as easily have exercised my free will and chosen to turned left. There are no factors involved that would make it impossible for me to have chosen otherwise.
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    26,056
    Ratings:
    +10,225
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I agree with you that choosing is a function of the brain, a process that has to be determined by preceding causal events. Unless, that is, one wants to contend their so-call choices are entirely random events. Choosing is an illusion that gives one the impression (the illusion) that having chosen A they could have done differently and chosen B. They could not have.

    .
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,837
    Ratings:
    +1,336
    I believe free will is reality...

     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,278
    Ratings:
    +798
    Religion:
    Judaism
    As I said before, #4, resisting temptation by act of will, is not a reason.
     
Loading...