1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by katiemygirl, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    Unless they have changed their beliefs, Pegg does not teach what they believe as their leaders actually teach it.

    Read this and see for yourself:

    Published in 1976 was their book entitled, "Holy Spirit—The Force Behind the Coming New Order!"

    In chapter 6, pages 112-118 and paragraphs 25-33, under the Chapter title, "A Congregation Anointed for Kingdom Proclamation":

    subtitle: BEGETTING BY HOLY SPIRIT

    (Added comment: Here in paragraph 25 they themselves recognize that 1 Corinthians 15:50 is saying that to inherit the kingdom one must have that renewed spirit, just as i have been saying.) 25 There is another feature about this operation of God’s active force. Jesus indicated it when he said: “Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3, 5) A Christian with a heavenly inheritance in view must imitate his Master Jesus by being baptized in water. In this way he symbolizes the dedication of himself to Jehovah God, to do the divine will. (Matthew 28:19, 20) But there must also be an operation of holy spirit upon him. Why? Because, as the apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15:50, “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”

    (Added comment: Here in paragraph 26 they recognize that the elect are born again spiritually while yet alive in the flesh.) 26 If the disciples are to be put in line for entrance into God’s heavenly kingdom, they need to be “born again” and thus become spiritual sons of God. As in Jesus’ own case, it is the spiritual son of God that is anointed with holy spirit. This accounts for it that, after speaking about the anointing, the anointed apostle John goes on to say, in 1 John 3:1-3: “See what sort of love the Father has given us, so that we should be called children of God; and such we are. That is why the world does not have a knowledge of us, because it has not come to know him. Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope set upon him purifies himself just as that one is pure.”

    (Added comment: Here in paragraph 27 they further reason with support for the conclusion that the elect are born again spiritually while yet alive in the flesh.)27 Human parents do not have anything to do with a person’s being “born again.” Out of a person’s own conviction he has to accept Jesus as the Messiah and follow him as the one anointed by God to be the King in the heavenly Messianic kingdom. Then it rests with God’s will as to whether to beget such a follower of Christ by holy spirit. Not human parents, but God begets children for heaven. That is what the apostle John says. Here are John’s words: “He,” that is, Jesus Christ at his coming to the Jewish nation nineteen centuries ago, “came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (John 1:11-13) By God’s begetting they become his spiritual sons. He does not beget them in a mother’s womb.

    subtitle: “A NEW CREATION”

    28 Do not human parents decide for themselves about having children of their own flesh and blood? Yes! So, too, God decides about whom he will beget to be his spiritual son with a heavenly inheritance. “Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures.” So writes the disciple James to Christians whom he calls “the twelve tribes that are scattered about.” (James 1:1, 18) In agriculture, “firstfruits” are taken out from a new crop and are dedicated to God as something holy and something due him. Who, then, are the spiritual firstfruits? Those whom the heavenly Father begets according to his own will and by means of the “word of truth.” These he takes out from the human family to be a heavenly Kingdom class.

    (Added comment: Here in paragraph 29 is the place I believe Pegg is failing to understand what her teachers have been teaching.) 29 To the same “firstfruits” class the Christian apostle Peter wrote: “You have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible reproductive seed, through the word of the living and enduring God.” (1 Peter 1:23) The “new birth” or the being “born again” is required for a Christian’s final entrance into the heavenly kingdom. Hence Peter writes: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”—1 Peter 1:3, 4; note also 1 John 3:9.

    30 To Christians in the Roman province of Galatia who had received the “adoption as sons,” the apostle Paul wrote: “Now because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: ‘Abba, Father!’ So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.”—Galatians 4:5-7.

    31 Christianized Jews, like Paul himself, were no longer slaves under the Law covenant that had been mediated by the prophet Moses. They were now spiritual sons of God and were in the “new covenant” mediated by Jesus Christ, a Prophet greater than Moses. That new covenant produces what the old Mosaic Law covenant failed to produce, namely, “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” (Exodus 19:5, 6; Hebrews 8:6-13; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6) The “holy nation” that is in the new covenant is therefore a spiritual Israel, made up of Christians who are Jews or Israelites inwardly. These have been circumcised in their hearts rather than outwardly in the flesh. So we read in Romans 2:28, 29.

    32 In the face of all these new features about the spiritual sons of God, can we be surprised at all that the apostle Paul speaks about “a new creation”? No! It is just logical for him to do so. Reasoning from the fact that Jesus Christ had been raised up from the dead as a heavenly spiritual Son of God, the apostle Paul says: “Consequently from now on we know no [Christian] man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more. Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence. But all things are from God.”—2 Corinthians 5:16-18.

    33 From all of this it follows that fleshly circumcision of a person as a fleshly descendant of the patriarch Abraham or as a natural Jew is not a requirement for us to gain salvation through the Messiah, Christ. In the case of those persons who expect to go to heaven, what really is necessary? The inspired apostle Paul answers with these straightforward words: “Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:15, 16) This whole “Israel of God” is a “new creation.”
     
  2. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    Does Paul's letter to the Ephesians apply to all christians or only the anointed?

    Am I reading this correctly? It's saying the anointed are saved.

    It says the anointed are made new by Holy Spirit because they have become a new creation.

    Do you believe there is a difference between being made new, becoming a new creation and being born again?

    Do JW's have a Bible Dictionary? If so, do you know how they define the word "regeneration?"

    And one more thing...The anointed who have been saved, made new, regenerated, are they physically dead or alive when this happens?

    I have read a lot about Paul's travels. Interesting indeed!
     
  3. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    If you pay attention to the context of the scripture you can see that Paul is speaking about regeneration.This involves the holy spirit.These would be only anointed ones.Now,of course there are others there that are bystanders,listening,following,who are not of this fold.It is much like today.There are those who belong ,and then there are those who follow, but are not of this group specifically.We already know there were anointed ones there because Jesus speaks to this congregation in Revelation 2.
     
  4. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    This is very interesting! Thank you for sharing.

    In Pegg's defense, it is possible, and probably more than likely, that the teachings in 1976 are very different than those in 2015.

    I'm hoping Pegg can post their most current teaching. I was also hoping Kolibri could help out here, but I know he is busy with his work.

    I could ask my good friend and neighbor, but she is fairly new to the org., so I doubt she could answer. I might write my questions down, and ask her to present them at her next Bible study.

    I had some KW's come to my house on Saturday. I wish I'd thought to ask them then.
     
  5. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    It seems that Bible Student has been listening to Pegg. No offense intended.

    Either there is an obvious trend taking place among some of them or their teachers have suddenly changed their beliefs in recent times.

    One thing is for sure, even as you can well see in the article I posted in post 1541 at the top of this page, these particular two are not teaching what their GB taught for a good many years (until just very recently if their GB has in fact turned to teaching something new.)
     
  6. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    Does Paul's letter to the Ephesians apply to all christians today?
     
  7. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    The post I shared on the previous page was from 1998 and they were yet teaching the same as that 1976 article, so it would have to be a very recent change.
     
    #1547 Mountain_Climber, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  8. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    I'm hoping to get the official, current teaching from someone.

    Bible Student has not said he is a JW.
     
  9. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    It seems there may be some confusion amongst them then. Maybe they can clarify at their next meeting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,589
    Ratings:
    +4,216
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Is this the question? Does a person become a child of God at his new birth or "born again"?

    Or are there people who are God's children who are not born again?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #


    If you are really curious and would like to know about the Jehovahs Witnesses,, I would advice you to go to their website, and seek your answers there.:) Any answer I give you will be the same one they give.I believe in what they teach.:thumbsup:

    Regeneration simply means ,the formation of new.A renewal.This is in any dictionary.

    "Regeneration. With a view to restoring to mankind perfection of organism and the prospect of eternal life, Jehovah has provided the truth, “the word of life.” (Joh 17:17; Php 2:16) Following the truth will lead one to a knowledge of God’s provision of Jesus Christ, who gave himself “a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) Only through this means can man be restored to full spirituality as well as to physical wholeness.—Ac 4:12; 1Co 1:30; 15:23-26; 2Co 5:21; see RANSOM.

    Through Jesus Christ, then, regeneration to life comes. He is called “the last Adam . . . a life-giving spirit.” (1Co 15:45) Prophecy designates him as “Eternal Father” (Isa 9:6) and as the one who “poured out his soul to the very death,” whose soul is ‘set as a guilt offering.’ He, as such “Father,” is able to regenerate mankind, thus giving life to those who exercise faith in the offering of his soul and are obedient.—Isa 53:10-12."


    Life — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY



    It can mean regeneration of life through belief in Christ Jesus.Jesus gave his life as a ransom, and Adamic sin was lifted.Life was restored.
    • 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.



      "Re-Creation. To his apostles Jesus also spoke of a “re-creation” and associated it with the time “when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne.” (Mt 19:28; Lu 22:28-30) The Greek word translated “re-creation” is pa·lin·ge·ne·si′a, which is composed of elements that mean “again; anew; once more” and “birth; origin.” Philo used the term with reference to the reconstitution of the world after the Flood. Josephus used it regarding the reestablishment of Israel after the exile. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel, says that the use of pa·lin·ge·ne·si′a at Matthew 19:28 “is in full agreement with that of Philo and Josephus.” (Translated by G. Bromiley, 1964, Vol. I, p. 688) So the reference is not to a new creation but to a regeneration, or a renewal, by means of which Jehovah’s purpose for the earth is fully accomplished.—See TRIBE (“Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel”)."
      WOL


      "Titus 3:5—How are anointed Christians ‘saved through a bath’ and ‘made new by holy spirit’?
      They are ‘saved through a bath’ in that God has bathed, or cleansed, them with the blood of Jesus on the merit of the ransom sacrifice. They are ‘made new by holy spirit’ because they have become “a new creation” as spirit-begotten sons of God.—2 Cor. 5:17."

      So this passage in Titus 3:5 is saying that all are regenerated through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ.He has restored life.Jesus also says they have become a "new creation." This means they are transformed. They are now spirit begotten sons of God.These are anointed ones.These will receive the heavenly reward if they die faithful.

      2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence.

      For spirit born Christians(anointed ones) it means a new creation.

      It says, "They are ‘made new by holy spirit’ because they have become “a new creation” as spirit-begotten sons of God"



      "8 Still addressing anointed ones, Paul adds: “If anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.” (2 Corinthians 5:17) To be “in union with Christ” means to enjoy a oneness with him. (John 17:21) This relationship came into existence for the person when Jehovah drew him to his Son and begot that person with holy spirit. As a spirit-begotten son of God, he was “a new creation” with the prospect of sharing with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom. (John 3:3-8; 6:44; Galatians 4:6, 7) Such anointed Christians have been given a grand privilege of service.""




      "Later, on the basis of his sacrificial death, Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men. Each of these has become “a new creation,” begotten by God’s spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 9:15."

      "Over the centuries, these anointed, spirit-begotten Christians have been gathered into union with Christ as the true Christian congregation, in itself a new creation. God called it out of this world for a purpose, as the apostle Peter states: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9) Like Christ Jesus, God’s initial new creation, this subsequent new creation has a primary obligation to preach the good news. (Luke 4:18, 19) Individually, its members, ultimately numbering 144,000, must “put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.” (Ephesians 4:24; Revelation 14:1, 3) This requires that they cultivate “the fruitage of the spirit,” described at Galatians 5:22, 23, and faithfully care for their stewardship.—1 Corinthians 4:2; 9:16."
      WOL

     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    I already responded to you this morning concerning this question.I did say I am not a JW.I told you this morning around 9AM.Here it is again.


    Today at 9:26 AM #1535

    [​IMG]


    :)" I really don't know. I was under the impression he may be studying with them. But I will let him tell me if he wants to.

    Okay Miss I am says me ;) , tell me this. Aren't the Governing body anointed? Aren't they born again?"



    It's not a secret or anything.Lol..:p I am not a JW for the simple fact that I am not baptized.I am not a member.I have studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses off and on.I believe in their teachings, and depend on information from them.I have received an accurate knowledge of the truth in the holy scriptures solely from the JW's.No one else has ever shown me anything close to the truth before in the HS, except for them.:)
     
  13. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    Your answer has already been explained.
     
  14. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    Thank you for commenting.I enjoyed our discussion.Have a nice day.:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,589
    Ratings:
    +4,216
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    John 3:3 ESV /
    Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    Matthew 21:31
    "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

    Mark 10:14
    When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

    1 John 2:29
    If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him

    1 John 3:9
    No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God

    Mark 9:47
    And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell

    What form of the verb is there in all of them which speaks of born again?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,589
    Ratings:
    +4,216
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    If born again is only for dead people what does Mark 9:47 mean? What I mean is a new creation which is spirit does not have plucked out eyes.
     
  17. Shak34

    Shak34 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    270
    Ratings:
    +77
    Religion:
    Don't deny the possibility of a higher power
    There is an article in the 4/1 2009 watchtower that talks about born again. I don't know if it will answer your question since I did not read it and haven't really been following this thread very closely. But here is the link.
    Being Born Again—The Road to Salvation? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    Thank you.
     
  19. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    My understanding of what you have said is that Paul's letter to the Ephesians only applies to the anointed class and not the rest of the Jehovah Witnesses. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Here is Eph. 1:3-14. I've included it for my own benefit as a reference point.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, bothwhich are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


    You're saying these blessings only apply to the anointed?

    just as He chose us (the anointed) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we (the anointed) should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

    In love, he predestined us (the anointed) for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.

    In Him we (the anointed) have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

    In Him also we (the anointed) have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

    Do only the anointed have redemption?

    Do only the anointed have forgiveness of sins in accordance with the riches of God's grace?


    Were only the anointed included in Christ when they heard the message of truth?
     
    #1559 katiemygirl, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    • Like Like x 2
  20. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    You too Bible Student! Looking forward to hearing from you again. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...