Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[katiemygirl]

I am sorry is I seem to be pressing at you on this. Perhaps looking at the literal translation will assist you to see what I said. I will bracket the changes to different Greek words:

"(if) (somehow) (I might attain down) (into) (the) (out-resurrection) (the) (out of) (dead)."

So can you now see what I mean when i say you are not accounting for the prefix I highlighted in red above? It seems that you are making it as though he said out of the dead twice.

What he is essentially saying is that it is out of the out of the dead. In other words it is set apart from the resurrection of the rest of the dead not necessarily in time but in quality and purpose.


I can see how you might understand that in this way, quote, "Notice that ALL (v.28) that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, the good to life, the evil to damnation (v. 29)."
Now ask yourself, if they all heard his voice and came forth from the dead over a period of time, would it not yet be true that, quote, ALL (v.28) that are in the graves heard His voice, and came forth, the good to life, the evil to damnation?

Also, please dig deeper into that word damnation which occurs there. Then we can talk about that word.

I will consider what you have written, but right now I am burned out with the forum. I'm done for tonight. Thanks for the good discussion today.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection+ and to share in his sufferings,+ submitting myself to a death like his,+11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.+ That is the NWT

And this is what was found.
1487 εἴ
4459 πως
2658 καταντήσω
1519 εἰς
3588 τὴν
1815 ἐξανάστασιν
3588 τὴν
1537 ἐκ
3498 νεκρῶν

if
by any means
I might attain
to
the
resurrection
from
out of
dead

Because the word dead used is related to the word corpse which is physical, then the phrase is about his physical resurrection and not his spiritual resurrection.

Strong's Greek: 3498. νεκρός (nekros) -- dead

Sometimes I get why the society adds a word or a phrase or changes something but this time I have no clue.

apo alows for having began at a point and came from that point at any time in the past and therefore is appropriately translated "from".

ek in it's purest sense does mean "out of" as a continuing action from the point of beginning unto the end point.

On that basis I believe I disagree that it has to be talking of a physical resurrection (though it may be). Perhaps it's attachment to the corporal death could mean that literal corporal death of Christ? (added: which they have not proved successful at until they have endured to the end.)

Sort of like Peter said, 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."

Peter speaks of it as a continuous ongoing process from the point of rising with Christ and continuing in that good conscience unto our end goal.

That end goal is expressed here: 1 Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Paul saw that necessary continued action and spoke of it this way: Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

The problem is one of perspective. The scriptures do not speak of it all from one perspective. There are even perspectives where in we are perceived as already saved. There are perspectives which speak of us being kept safe along the way to our being saved. And there perspectives that speak of us having to endure to the end to be saved. And these are all real and true perspectives that truly do exist in the scriptures. And so we end up fighting over each of us choosing a different perspective to see it from rather than realizing that all of those perspectives are truly there and seeking to figure out how they harmonize. And they do actually harmonize when each is properly understood.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I will consider what you have written, but right now I am burned out with the forum. I'm done for tonight. Thanks for the good discussion today.

Not a problem.

I know what you mean. Me also.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I have found many scriptures where some words have only the one entry. It is fascinating!

It is more difficult to discern meaning when there is no comparison scripture (where the same word is found).

That is surely the truth! It then takes pondering into the concepts themselves, which means long hours of praying and meditating.

 

[savagewind]

apo alows for having began at a point and came from that point at any time in the past and therefore is appropriately translated "from".

ek in it's purest sense does mean "out of" as a continuing action from the point of beginning unto the end point.

On that basis I believe I disagree that it has to be talking of a physical resurrection (though it may be). Perhaps it's attachment to the corporal death could mean that literal corporal death of Christ?

Sort of like Peter said, 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.."

Peter speaks of it as a continuous ongoing process from the point of rising with Christ and continuing in that good conscience unto our end goal.

That end goal is expressed here: 1 Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Paul saw that necessary continued action and spoke of it this way: Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

The problem is one of perspective. The scriptures do not speak of it all from one perspective. There are even perspectives where in we are perceived as already saved. There are perspectives which speak of us being kept safe along the way to our being saved. And there perspectives that speak of us having to endure to the end to be saved. And these are all real and true perspectives that truly do exist in the scriptures. And so we end up fighting over each of us choosing a different perspective to see it from rather than realizing that all of those perspectives are truly there and seeking to figure out how they harmonize. And they do actually harmonize when each is properly understood.

Yes.

I think the kind of salvation that is given us is like the transportation needed to get from one place to another. The help is the helper which is promised us and indeed we are not actually saved until the end, for a new beginning in Christ. I think life is not guaranteed anyone.

 

[Nada]

I am having difficulty seeing a separate anointed class in Scripture.

We should first define "anointed," don't you think? It seems as though it can mean different things in different contexts. Agree?

In the context of our discussion, would you say that anointed means consecrated or set apart?

If this is the case, aren't all believers anointed — consecrated and set aside for service to God.

Yes, anointed can have different meanings.King David was anointed,and he is not going to heaven, according to the holy scriptures.

• 1 Samuel 16:12,13 " ...Then the Lord said, “Rise and anoint him; this is the one.”13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah.
  
  
  Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
  
  So we can see that Jehovah God the Almighty can choose people to do His will without them going to heaven.
  
  Jehovah even uses others, who are pagans, to do His will.God anointed King Cyrus of Persia, and used him to destroy the city of Babylon, ruled by King Nebuchadnezzar's Dynasty.
  
  Isaiah 45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
  
  
  
  
  

 

[savagewind]

.King David was anointed,and he is not going to heaven, according to the holy scriptures.

• 1 Samuel 16:12,13 " ...Then the Lord said, “Rise and anoint him; this is the one.”13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah.
  
  
  Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
  
  
  
  
  

David did not ascend to heaven is not the same as will not ascend to heaven.

 

[Pegg]

Added: My point is not that I agree it is earlier, per say, but that they go onto to manufacture other reasons for that resurrection of the "set apart ones" being special in addition to what they have the verse saying.

from what are they 'set apart' ???

 

[Pegg]

I read what you wrote above and cannot help but ask you, are the interpretations of the Governing Body your final authority or are the Scriptures? I always though JW's put the Scriptures above everything. Please tell me I was not mistaken.

You are mistaken.

'Most' Jehovhah's Witnesses wait for the Governing Body to provide the spiritual teaching. They dont push ahead and assume the role of the 'faithful and discreet slave'

 

[savagewind]

You are mistaken.

'Most' Jehovhah's Witnesses wait for the Governing Body to provide the spiritual teaching. They dont push ahead and assume the role of the 'faithful and discreet slave'

Yes they do. The governing body assumes the role of the faithful and discreet slave.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

from what are they 'set apart' ???

Psalms 4:3 "But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him."

The elect who will rule with Christ are "set apart" from the remainder of harvest, chosen as first fruits to be one with the chief first fruit, Christ, so as to be his earthly body walking this earth in faithfulness to his spirit of love and duty toward his Father. *A wife is under the law of her husband.

Ezekiel 44:30 "And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house." *The children are through the law of their mother obedient to the law of their father..

*I figure you recognize those Biblical principals.

Do you remember who that womb is identified as, at Galatians 1:15? She corresponded the greater Jerusalem above who is the wifely figure wed to God. She bears a daughter called New Jerusalem, and that New Jerusalem is the 144,000. So the 144,000 cannot be all of God's spiritual Israel. The New Jerusalem bears children of those who put faith in Christ through her as she dispenses the law of her husband. Thus Christ becomes the everlasting father of all who will be saved. And if Christ is their everlasting father, then they, too, are the rest of the house. The rest of the house of Israel.

And then as the Father of Christ is God, God is vindicated as the Grand(est) Father of all.

All things back to God as one in Christ. A man's children are also his flesh, even as his wife is one flesh with him.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Yes they do. The governing body assumes the role of the faithful and discreet slave.

I know that they say Christ returned in the hour of inspection and to his invisible parousia (presence) back in 1914.

It would seem that on that basis they are no longer just competing for the honor of being that faithful slave. They would have to now believe they are that faithful slave. For that faithful slave was chosen shortly after Christ's arrival to take an accounting of those he left in charge while he was away, according to Matthew 24:45-51 and Matthew 25:14-30.

While 1914 is now 100 years ago, it was sometime shortly after Noah was 500 years old that God told him the earth would be destroyed by the flood and it was not until Noah was 600 years old that the flood began. Genesis 5:32; 7:6

And it sure does seem like it will be any day now.

Imagine all the mocking Noah and his family went through for that 100 years.

 

[Pegg]

Psalms 4:3 "But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him."

The elect who will rule with Christ are "set apart" from the remainder of harvest, chosen as first fruits to be one with the chief first fruit, Christ, so as to be his earthly body walking this earth in faithfulness to his spirit of love and duty toward his Father. *A wife is under the law of her husband.

Ezekiel 44:30 "And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house."

ok, so you have a 'selected' group who are 'set apart' from another group 'the rest in thine house'

Thats good. So we can agree that there are two different groups of people. And this reminds us of Jesus words about a 'little flock' (those who are set apart) and the 'other sheep' who are different to the little flock.
It also should remind us of the prophecy of Isaiah
“This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, “Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God.”’” (Isaiah 45:14)

That first group who are 'set apart' are to serve as 'priests' according to the scripture in Ezekiel 44:30
Now lets reason on this for a moment. If the little flock and the other sheep are all part of the anointed, why is the little flock serving as a preist to the 'rest of thine house'???

It doesnt say that the priests are serving as priests to the ones set apart....it says the ones set apart serve as priests to the 'rest of thine house'

Who are the 'rest of thine house' and where do you think they will be located? And secondly, if the anointed in heaven become one with God and Christ, why do some of them need to act as mediators for the 'rest of thine house'
A priest acts as a mediator for those who are alienated from God....in what way are the 'rest of thine house' alienated from God and why do they need others to act as mediaries for them??

 

[Mountain_Climber]

ok, so you have a 'selected' group who are 'set apart' from another group 'the rest in thine house'

Thats good. So we can agree that there are two different groups of people. And this reminds us of Jesus words about a 'little flock' (those who are set apart) and the 'other sheep' who are different to the little flock.
It also should remind us of the prophecy of Isaiah
“This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, “Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God.”’” (Isaiah 45:14)

That first group who are 'set apart' are to serve as 'priests' according to the scripture in Ezekiel 44:30
Now lets reason on this for a moment. If the little flock and the other sheep are all part of the anointed, why is the little flock serving as a preist to the 'rest of thine house'???

It doesnt say that the priests are serving as priests to the ones set apart....it says the ones set apart serve as priests to the 'rest of thine house'

Who are the 'rest of thine house' and where do you think they will be located? And secondly, if the anointed in heaven become one with God and Christ, why do some of them need to act as mediators for the 'rest of thine house'
A priest acts as a mediator for those who are alienated from God....in what way are the 'rest of thine house' alienated from God and why do they need others to act as mediaries for them??

I agree with you that the set apart ones are priests over the great crowd. That was typified by the priesthood of Aaron only being priests over Israel..

That is how they are set apart from the great crowd. We find that picture of the head patriarch acting as the priest to his own household all through the OT. Even Job acted as a priest to his household.

Melchizedek was a priest to the world and Christ has become a priest according to the manner of Melchizedek over the world.. The Melchizedekian priesthood pictured the greater priesthood of Jesus and his set apart body over the world which is now being treated as the greater Israel. But it is only upon faith that they can become a part of the spiritual Israel and benefit from Christ's and his one body's priesthood.

That the entire world is now being treated as that old Israel even before faith is shown in Paul's words, Romans 9:6 "However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really Israel."

Indeed the rest of the house are that great crowd located where the whole house of Israel will be located right here on earth world-wide. That house will be the new world. The spiritual house of Judah is what Peter speaks of at 1 Peter 2:5. It, too will be here in the boarders of God's earthly house of Israel. But it will occupy the same elevated position toward this world as did that old Zion to that then Israel.

 

[Pegg]

Ok great... so there will be a great crowd of people who will remain here on earth.

So why do you insist that all christians are of the anointed class? Im certainly not of that class... im hoping to be among the great crowd. Is that such a bad thing?

 

[katiemygirl]

You are mistaken.

'Most' Jehovhah's Witnesses wait for the Governing Body to provide the spiritual teaching. They dont push ahead and assume the role of the 'faithful and discreet slave'

Thanks for your honesty.

Can we agree on the following?

The Bible is God's word.

We should trust it rather than any religious institution.

If a religious institution teaches something contrary to the Bible, then we should follow the Bible, not the religious institution.

Yes? No?

 

[katiemygirl]

="Bible Student, post: 4313676, member: 54450"]Yes, anointed can have different meanings.

Hello Bible Student,

I'm still trying to understand the JW position. I seem to be getting mixed messages from all of you here on the forum.

I have one question. Are the "anointed" (your current Governing body) born again?

I am not asking about heavenly rewards or future ruling with Christ.

 

[Desert Snake]

Chalk another one up for Satan.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Ok great... so there will be a great crowd of people who will remain here on earth.

So why do you insist that all christians are of the anointed class? Im certainly not of that class... im hoping to be among the great crowd. Is that such a bad thing?

You would first have to explain to me which post of mine you draw that conclusion from. For I have no awareness of having said that.

 

[katiemygirl]

Ok great... so there will be a great crowd of people who will remain here on earth.

So why do you insist that all christians are of the anointed class? Im certainly not of that class... im hoping to be among the great crowd. Is that such a bad thing?

Who are you addressing here?