Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Pegg]

Yes, (1) that is spoken in relation to be purchased from this old earth which passes away. And so that expression merely means they are guaranteed not to pass away with it. And (2) they will be the rulers on God's footstool which is before his throne and so all those symbolic things you mention can yet be true. You know Revelation is a book of signs and typification.

You will have judges that can sympathize as they will be just like you, living right here on earth where they have suffered just like you.

i dont agree they will be on earth....

Daniel 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+


And so many scriptures from the christian scriptures which tell us otherwise:

Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of man+ coming in a cloud with power and great glory

Acts 7:56 and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man+standing at God’s right hand.”

Revelation 14:14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man,


You know what i'm seeing as a common theme here? Jesus is in heaven with God. Its called the 'kingdom of the heavens' for a reason.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

i dont agree they will be on earth....

Daniel 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+


And so many scriptures from the christian scriptures which tell us otherwise:

Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of man+ coming in a cloud with power and great glory

Acts 7:56 and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man+standing at God’s right hand.”

Revelation 14:14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man,


You know what i'm seeing as a common theme here? Jesus is in heaven with God. Its called the 'kingdom of the heavens' for a reason.

Yes, (1) that is spoken in relation to be purchased from this old earth which passes away. And so that expression merely means they are guaranteed not to pass away with it. And (2) they will be the rulers on God's footstool which is before his throne and so all those symbolic things you mention can yet be true. You know Revelation is a book of signs and typification.

You will have judges that can sympathize as they will be just like you, living right here on earth where they have suffered just like you.

Similarly you have them in the wrong heavens. They replace the one mentioned here:
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

And you know that even your group knows earth's present governments constitute ruling in that heavens. (A lofty position of government as blessed of God, for he raises up whom he will and he lowers whom he will.)

 

[Pegg]

Do you think that when a person is born again in this life that his sins are forgiven?

every person who sincerely repents and seeks forgiveness has their sins forgiven. Forgiveness is not reserved only for the anointed.

And would you agree that being born again is the same as being made new, being regenerated?

After death, yes. They are given a new life as a powerful spirit.

Before death, no.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

After death, yes. They are given a new life as a powerful spirit.

Before death, no.

So God has shown partiality.

I would be more fearful of claiming that than I would be of your GB.

 

[Pegg]

So God has shown partiality.

I would be more fearful of claiming that than I would be of your GB.

why is it partial?

God didnt create you as an angel... is he being partial?

Does God not have the right to choose for himself whom he will allow to enter heaven?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

why is it partial?

God didnt create you as an angel... is he being partial?

Does God not have the right to choose for himself whom he will allow to enter heaven?

Now you are resorting to a circular strawman's argument rather than caring at all to try to understand.

Your group is so obviously wrong on this point. But at the rate you are going it will take a while for you to know that.

That is OK Pegg. Just love and obey God and show honor toward his appointed king over us and one day soon you will know it.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Pegg, post: 4315638, member: 23994"]every person who sincerely repents and seeks forgiveness has their sins forgiven. Forgiveness is not reserved only for the anointed.

How do you know forgiveness is not reserved for the anointed only?

I don't disagree with you on this point. I would just like to know what verses you would use to support your view.

What I'm having trouble understanding is how you think you can be forgiven and not also have the Spirit of Jehovah in you?

Doesn't Jehovah promise a cleansing and His spirit living in you?

Ez. 36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

How is it you could have your sins forgiven but not have the spirit of Jehovah in you?

 

[savagewind]

If someone's sins are forgiven it means a new start. A new start means a new life. A new life means a birth. A birth means born again.

Where does the Bible say born again means from the flesh to a spirit? Isn't it assumed?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

If someone's sins are forgiven it means a new start. A new start means a new life. A new life means a birth. A birth means born again.

Where does the Bible say born again means from the flesh to a spirit? Isn't it assumed?

That is an easy one. In the minds of those who think they see it saying that.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

How do you know forgiveness is not reserved for the anointed only?

I don't disagree with you on this point. I would just like to know what verses you would use to support your view.

What I'm having trouble understanding is how you think you can be forgiven and not also have the Spirit of Jehovah in you?

Doesn't Jehovah promise a cleansing and His spirit living in you?

Ez. 36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

How is it you could have your sins forgiven but not have the spirit of Jehovah in you?

Ezekiel there said, "I will put my spirit [with]in you, as in, "in the house if Israel" to walk among the them. The new heart is but a way of describing an individuals own renewed spirit which God is able to communicate with. Man's old spirit was dull of seeing and hearing so as for him to be able to communicate with it.

1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore Jehovah God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now Jehovah saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. ...............

1 Samuel 2:35 "And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever."

There is a little more to why they believe as they do than is immediately visible. And it is not that they have everything incorrect but that they violate their own prescribed cautions in jumping beyond what the scriptures actually say in a few places.

 

[katiemygirl]

Ezekiel there said, "I will put my spirit [with]in you, as in, "in the house if Israel" to walk among the them. The new heart is but a way of describing an individuals own renewed spirit which God is able to communicate with. Man's old spirit was dull of seeing and hearing so as for him to be able to communicate with it.

1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore Jehovah God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now Jehovah saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. ...............

1 Samuel 2:35 "And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever."

There is a little more to why they believe as they do than is immediately visible. And it is not that they have everything incorrect but that they violate their own prescribed cautions in jumping beyond what the scriptures actually say in a few places.

I think you missed my main point. How can someone receive forgiveness without being given the spirit of Jehovah?

Anyway, I see the passage differently. Besides, Acts 2:38 links forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit together. You don't get one without the other.

Parts of what Ezekiel wrote applied to Israel at that time. Other things he wrote apply to the New Covenant.

The forgiveness of sins, regeneration, and the reception of the Holy Spirit were not available under the Law of Moses. Only under the terms of the New Covenant, and the shed blood of Jesus has there ever been available to men such blessings as these.

There was no forgiveness of sins under Moses; there was no Holy Spirit within ALL the people who would believe and repent as there is now; there was no regeneration.

This prophecy teaches that this cleansing of Israel would be through the New Covenant, as Jeremiah said.

Jer. 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

“You are no part of the world.”—JOHN 15:19

First of all, please read the scripture you submitted, John 15:19. Does it really say "You are no "PART" of the world?" Or does it say,
John 15:18-19 (ESVST) . 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Of course in the "NWT" that the WT re-wrote to fit their doctrine, it does. JW's are very much "PART OF" the world except where the GB inserts it"s "OPINION" on matters. Do you pay your bills?, Do you work? Do you buy groceries? Do you drive a car? Do you buy gas? Do you pay a mortgage or rent? Do you use electricity and water? How can a JW do all these things and support the "system of things" by giving them their money and say they are "NO PART OF THE WORLD?"

John 17:13-18 (ESVST) . 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

Christians are "PART" of the world because we are not taken out of the world. We are not "OF" the world because we are "BORN OF GOD". You cannot be "IN" the world and be "NO PART" of the world. You can go to Mexico and be part of Mexico, but you are "NOT OF" Mexico.

2Co 5:20 (ESVST) 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ,

And even if some of our teachings are not quite right yet, we trust they will be when God feels fit to reveal the information.

Do you truly believe that statement? You believe in your heart that God, will actually allow His "CHOSEN" people to be taught false truths until He sees fit to "MAKE THE LIGHT BRIGHTER?" Please give me 1 (ONE) instance in the Bible that proves that statement to be true. Jesus is the way, the "TRUTH" and the "LIGHT". There was not one person who God used to write the Bible that was perfect, was there? Weren't they all "IMPERFECT" men? Do you believe the Bible to be "FALLIBLE?" I myself do not believe that God will allow His people to be "FED THE WRONG SPIRITUAL FOOD" at the right time.

no one claims to be infallible and the GB are very open when it comes to correcting themselves.

Please give me one example from the Bible where a "SPIRIT DIRECTED" person corrected a "TRUTH" they taught.

They are also not averse to correcting older ideas when their understanding of something suddenly changes.

Pro 3:5-6 (ESVST) 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

Enough said about that comment!

This to me shows humility and Godly direction. Even Jesus own apostles had some wrong ideas among them...but they learned to change them.

They may have had wrong ideas, but did they ever "TEACH" them worldwide as "TRUTH"? I don't think so, do you?

It is wrong to assume that the GB are 100% correct on every matter and even they dont claim that. There are no perfect people on earth... Jehovah is working with imperfect people and it will remain that way for as long as mankind are imperfect. If you expect perfection you will be disappointed. But if you seek the spirit of the truth you will find it among Jehovahs people.

How can that statement even be entertained? Please explain to me how a "SPIRIT DIRECTED" GB, that claims to get their teachings directly from the "SPIRIT" of God could ever be anything except 100% correct, 100% of the time. All through the Bible what did the prophets and teachers say, "Thus says the LORD", "the Word of the LORD came to me", "the LORD has spoken". I have never read a verse that says, "it is our understanding", "we thought", "evidently it means". The GB teach their "OPINION" of what the Word says.

And there were never any perfect people on earth. Do you believe the Bible to have errors? It was written by imperfect men.


If I seek the "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" how will I find it among the JW's? Their "TRUTH" is always "CHANGING", it doesn't get "BRIGHTER" it completely changes. You cannot tell me with an "HONEST" heart that what the GB is teaching today is the truth. It could change next month when they get a "CLEARER" understanding.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I would follow the bible. Would you?

Hello Pegg. First I want to say that I am in no way attacking you as a person or as a JW. My heart really hurts for all JW's because "I BELIEVE" (my opinion) that they are being mislead. I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend how an organization or an individual can claim to be "SPIRIT DIRECTED", led by the Spirit of God to give "SPIRITUAL FOOD" to the people of God and then claim that there may be errors in their teaching. I'm not a JW, but when I read their material I have to ask myself, is this the truth or an error? If they claim to not be infallible, do they know what part of what they are teaching is in error? NO, they don't, but they teach it any way. They have no idea what is in error, but if a JW was to go against any teaching they would be disfellowshipped wouldn't they?

If you were studying to be a doctor and you came across a book that said, "This book has been written by Dr.'s outstanding in their field, but they do not claim to be infallible so there may be some errors in it's pages." Can you say that you would study that book not knowing what is right or an error? Wouldn't you be putting your career, your reputation and the lives of your patients at risk? How can you put your eternity in the hands of "IMPERFECT" men that claim, their teaching may contain errors? They claim that there may be errors, but they don't know what they are, if they did know, they would correct them wouldn't they? They are presenting their opinion as truth. If they were teaching what God was "MOVING THEM ALONG" to teach, would there be errors?

Have a blessed day Pegg! Again, I am not attacking you as a person or as a JW. I just get riled up when think about the GB claiming they are the only channel of God in the world today, and then claim some of their teachings ay be wrong. I just don't believe that God works that way.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Mat 24:45-46 (ESVST) 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.


"Who then is the faithful and wise servant?" Can the GB truly say they are "faithful and wise"? In my opinion the answer is no. How can they claim to be faithful and wise when they don't listen to the Spirit of God but teach their own "understanding" of Scripture? If they teach from the leading of the "SPIRIT" of God, how can they ever be wrong?

"Pro 3:5-6 (ESVST) 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths".

If they "TRUST" in the Lord and "ACKNOWLEDGE" Him in all their ways God will make their path "STRAIGHT".

Does God make errors? No he doesn't.


"Who is a faithful and wise servant" was a rhetorical question meant for self-examination whether the follower was doing the will of his master (the Father) and judging their actions whether they are right or wrong (a wise servant).

 

[katiemygirl]

Mat 24:45-46 (ESVST) 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.


"Who then is the faithful and wise servant?" Can the GB truly say they are "faithful and wise"? In my opinion the answer is no. How can they claim to be faithful and wise when they don't listen to the Spirit of God but teach their own "understanding" of Scripture? If they teach from the leading of the "SPIRIT" of God, how can they ever be wrong?

"Pro 3:5-6 (ESVST) 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths".

If they "TRUST" in the Lord and "ACKNOWLEDGE" Him in all their ways God will make their path "STRAIGHT".

Does God make errors? No he doesn't.


"Who is a faithful and wise servant" was a rhetorical question meant for self-examination whether the follower was doing the will of his master (the Father) and judging their actions whether they are right or wrong (a wise servant).

Very good posts! I sent you a private message to say thank you.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

"According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:12) Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “The one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day. Judgment Day will give billions of people their first opportunity to learn about God’s will and to conform to it (What does the Bible Really Teach Page 214-215)

What does it matter how we live now? If we're not going to be judged for what we do now, but what we do "DURING" judgment day why can't we live as we want now?

PLEASE JW's, how does this make any sense at all? If this is the "TRUTH" from the Bible, why are you so adamant about preaching door to door? It doesn't matter what we do now, we will get another chance! "Judgment Day will give billions of people their first opportunity to learn about God’s will and to conform to it"

It's in the book, under "Judgment Day - What is it?" Pages 214 and 215. This is what the GB is teaching as "TRUTH" "What the Bible REALLY Teaches"

They give Romans 6:7 as a justification of what they are teaching. "PLEASE" I beg you JW's, read Romans 6:1-12 and see what the Bible REALLY teaches!

 

[savagewind]

I think that what a person believes is the path he walks. Everyone goes toward his or her belief and I think everyone wants to prove that their own faith is true.

Jehovah's Witnesses have faith that they can be an individual of "the great crowd which shall survive Armageddon or the great tribulation". So with their mind's eyes they all head for the condition which they believe is at the very end of this system of things. The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are leading them there.

What if Rev 7:9 isn't a prophecy of a real future event? If instead it is a vision which John had of ALL God's people whenever and wherever they lived then all JWs are headed for an unreality.

What did he see them "come out of"? I think they all came out of Babylon the Great.

Why is it written "after this I saw"? It is because he learned something from the visions he had seen before this vision. What he learned caused another vision, the vision of the great crowd.

Strong's Greek: 3793. ὄχλος (ochlos) -- a crowd, multitude, the common people

 

[djhwoodwerks]

every person who sincerely repents and seeks forgiveness has their sins forgiven. Forgiveness is not reserved only for the anointed.

Heb 9:21-22 (ESVST) . 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.


Luke 22:19-20 (ESVST) ." 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, " This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


If there is "NO" forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood and if Jesus poured out His blood for a "NEW" covenant for the forgiveness of sins, then for anyone to have their sins forgiven they "MUST" be under the "NEW" covenant, correct? But the GB teaches as "TRUTH" that not all "CHRISTIANS" are under the "NEW" covenant in Jesus' blood.

13 Jesus referred to this new covenant on the night before his death when he said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25) Are all Christians included in this new covenant? No. Some, like the apostles who drank of that cup that evening, are participants in the new covenant.* Jesus made another covenant with them to rule together with him in his Kingdom. (Luke 22:28-30) They will share with Jesus in his Kingdom.—Luke 22:15, 16. (Watchtower March 15, 2010)

14 What of those who will live on earth under his Kingdom? They are beneficiaries of the new covenant. (Gal. 3:8, 9) Although not participants, they ‘lay hold’ of this covenant by submitting to its requirements.

So they are saying, "unless one comes to the ORGANIZATION they will not benefit from the "NEW COVENANT" in Jesus' blood.

 

[savagewind]

I think truth should be called 'hearing what the spirit says to the congregations' and not 'reasoning from the scriptures'.

 

[savagewind]

From the article The Scriptures, Reason, and the Trinity by Charles Taze Russell

"Jehovah God by His Word furnishes us with ample reasons and logical bases for all regarding which he expects us to exercise faith....We can make sure of what is right only by a process of reasoning on God's word" (page 24) (Italics mine)

By his use of the word only he admits he has not heard from The Spirit of which Jesus commands us to "hear".