Was Muhammad a good man?

[loverOfTruth]

part 2 ...

1 Behold my slave, whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall give judgment unto the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the streets.

This is certainly talking about a slave of God, who will bring judgement unto non-Jews. All prophets after Jacob (pbuh) mentioned in the Bible came for Israelites not Gentiles. This includes Jesus (pbuh) (look Matthew 15:21-26, Matthew 10:5-6 and many more). But Muhammad (pbuh) was a Gentile and he brought message and judgment to Gentiles first.

And the Qur'an claims Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as a Slave of God also :
"And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our SLAVE (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful." (Al Qur'an 2:23)

3 He shall not break a bruised reed, nor shall he quench the smoking flax; he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not tire nor faint until he has set judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

It is clearly talking about someone who will bring law to the people in the 'isles' (peninsula). Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) established a state and ruled with the law that was given to him by God. Therefore he set judgment in the earth and he did not fall and he was not discouraged.

Here God says "his law", and in verse 9 says "former things come to pass". This means that he (the new prophet) will bring new law. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came with new law.

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thee by thine hand; I will keep thee and place thee as my covenant unto the people as light unto the Gentiles 7 that thou might open the eyes of the blind, that thou might bring out the prisoners from the prison and those that sit in darkness out of the prison house

Meaning, he will show people the things that they did not know and will show people how to comprehend God and His message.

Muhammad (pbuh) is a descendent of Abraham (pbuh) and came to Gentiles at a time of Jahilliyah(darkness) to bring then into light.

Also note that at the time the slavery was very common and ruthless in Arabia, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) came and gave rights to the slaves and commanded to free the slaves.

8 I am the LORD. This is my name, and my glory I will not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

From the above, we understand that the person that God is talking about will come to a place that people worship idols as their gods. If we read verse 17, we may understand this better. Again, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came during the Jahilliya (ignorance) period of Arabs to get rid of the idols.

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and I declare new things: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

As we read in verse 4 and this verse, the person, God is talking about, will bring new law. And this person is no one but Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

10 Sing unto the LORD a new song and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea and all that is therein, the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. 11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar inhabits; let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout {Heb. command} from the top of the mountains. 12 Let them give glory unto the LORD and declare his praise in the islands.

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran). This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and ( lift up their voices) shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca. Watch any video on Hajj and you'll know what I am talking about.

The rock is the rock that God sent to Adam from heaven, and it is located at the side of Kaba. As you know Muslim people make 7 tours around Kaba and kiss this rock while glorifying the Lord.

Also, you can see this in every Muslim country, when people are called to prayer, muezzins read the Adhan (calling to prayer) that sounds like a song. And even far from city you can hear this Adhan, it will look like that city lifted up its voice.

Also, in the Qur'an :
26. Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

27. "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; "
(The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)

16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will cause them to walk in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them and not forsake them. 17 They shall be turned back; they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

Arabs were worshipping idols, killing baby girls, drinking alcohol, gambling etc. - they were in complete darkness. Allah sent a way (Islam, unity of God) that they did not know, sent Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh) guided (as light before) them, and made crooked things (mentioned above) straight.

Also, noted in the Qur'an :
"It is You we worship and You we ask for help.Guide us to the straight path -" (al Qur'an 1:5-6)

Finally, Islam(the way of life) came and turned the Idol worshiping people of Arabia to the worship of One God.

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. 19 Who is blind, but my slave? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? Who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the slave of the LORD, 20 who sees many things and does not warn; who opens his ears and does not hear. 21 The LORD, jealous for his righteousness, will magnify the law and enlarge it.

In verse 18-25, God is rebuking the Israelites and specially references that 'slave/servant' and says, "Who is blind or deaf? My messenger (Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers) or you? So it make it even clear that the 'Servant/Slave that is to bring new law' was not Israel/Jacob. And He (God) magnified the law and people still follow his law that is in the Qur'an.

As the Qur'an also clarifies : "But those who deny Our verses are deaf and dumb within darknesses. Whomever Allah wills - He leaves astray; and whomever He wills - He puts him on a straight path." (Al Qur'an 6:39)

So it really cannot get any clearer than this that Isaiah 42 is indeed talking about a Slave of God from the Kedarites who will bring a new law and judgement and who's followers will sing praises of the Lord in the isles(peninsula) . Now look around and see if you can find it anywhere else other than in Islam, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and the Holy Qur'an.

Peace.

 

[Scimitar]

Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, was a good man.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Something that does not exist has no duration. I did not necessarily say the Christians are the best source. I said your argument requires Islam to be the best source and the Jewish people to not understand scriptures they have been studying for over twice as long and the people to whom the verses were given. Christianity would be a potentially better source for verses that impact it. There is no book on Earth as well studied as the bible and no group who have studied any book as much as the Christians concerning the bible. Christians are the only group that wholly embrace both testaments and all the doctrines they contain.

I tell you what out of laziness I will assume you did and change my argument. I went back several posts. Can you instead supply the post number that contains the explanation of that specific Surah?



Please stop typing out a bunch of claims then at the bottom when I have responded to a whole post give up the whole discussion. If you want to quit do so at the beginning of a post so I don't waste a bunch of time. Let me ask you something in all sincerity. I debate with over half a dozen world views and each have their own peculiarities. However why is it always the Islamic group that will simply quit, in a debate? I have known Islam for many things but the lack of dedication is not one of them. If it were not for their tenacity I would assume it was a teaching in the Quran, to not contend with anyone for too long. That is at least admirable. However the Quran's persist contend with everyone until they are subdued or defeated attitude, does not allow for this. Something else must explain such consistent bailing out.

Says the one who has not provided a single scriptural evidence as of yet for their claims ... honestly, you are the most disingenuous debater I have come across, so I really have no intention of wasting my time on you.

Anyway, Peace to you.

 

[gnostic]

Seems like you have read everything else except Isaiah 42.

And it would seem that you have willfully ignore everything, and just read only a tiny selection of verses, in which you think it may have Muhammad, but you really don't know for sure.

If you are any scholar of any note, then you would realize that those OTHER chapters that you have chosen to ignore, many parts of Isaiah 42 have parallels in other part of Isaiah's book.

With these PARALLELs you can compared many parts of 42 to verses in other chapters.

I am neither Jewish nor Christian, and yet I read the book of Isaiah far better than you.

You are only verse-mining. You have done no research on the other chapters in relation to Isaiah 42, only demonstrated you are not interested in looking at the verses objectively.

Throughout the Book of Isaiah (not only 42) we clearly see that GOD Almighty was going back and forth between loving and cursing the people of Israel. This clearly means that it was about events in different times with a big gap between them and you cannot claim that it was talking about the same thing all through. So you just because Isaiah 43 is talking about Isreal, doesn't mean that Isaiah 42 is also. You have to read each one separately carefully and then make assertions. Now let's get into Isaiah 42.

It is not just Isaiah 43.

Jacob - whose other name is Israel - has been referred to as a servant, 9 times. in 6 chapters.

But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;

But now hear, O Jacob my servant,
Israel whom I have chosen!

Thus says the Lord who made you,
who formed you in the womb and will help you:
Do not fear, O Jacob my servant,
Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.

Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea,
declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it,
send it forth to the end of the earth;
say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Here in Isaiah 49:3, the name Jacob is not used, but Israel is used, in the connection of being God's servant:

And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

And now the Lord says,
who formed me in the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him,
and that Israel might be gathered to him,
for I am honored in the sight of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—

he says,
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore the survivors of Israel;
I will give you as a light to the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

The last quote is in reference to the descendants of Jacob, not of Ishmael, in which they "Judah inheritors of my mountains" are chosen and they as in - THE SERVANTS - would settle there.

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
and from Judah inheritors of my mountains;
my chosen shall inherit it,
and my servants shall settle there.

None of these referred to any servant being that of the house of Ishmael, nothing referring to any Ishmaelite, let alone Muhammad.

As I have mentioned earlier, in the other posts, Israel can mean Jacob, but it could mean tribes of Israel, or the united kingdom of Israel (like when Saul, David and Solomon were rulers), or it could be the northern kingdom, in which Samaria is the capital.

Reading any part of Isaiah, or other books, like Jeremiah and Ezekiel, the use of Israel, can jump from person to kingdom or to tribe, and back again, at any instance of those chapters or verses.

Did you bother to read Isaiah 49, as in the whole chapter?

What do you see when you read Isaiah 49:5-6?

You quoted 42:1, and think the servant...or in your translation, is referring to "slave", of foreign background. But nothing in 41:1 make that distinction that the foreigner would be "servant" or your "slave".

Muhammad was never a slave, in the traditional sense of this word (slave), so clearly you are using slave loosely. When was Muhammad ever a slave. He was an orphan, and that doesn't make him a slave. His occupation included being a shepherd and trader (or merchant), and neither of these make him a slave.

I don't believe in the story being told in Genesis or Exodus, but the descendants of Jacob were slaves in Egypt. During dominance of first Assyria, and later Babylonia, both Israel and Judah became slaves by their respective enemies.

And Jacob worked as unappreciated servant to his father-in-law, Laban, in Genesis, yet God have chosen him as "special", and made him more wealthy than Laban, despite being Laban's servant.

Again, I would suggest that you read 49? (And I mean reading all of Isaiah 49.)

 

[gnostic]

continuing...

It is clear in Isaiah 49, that God will make Israel as "servants" (do you the plural here in "servant"?), that Israel, as a nation (or the 12 tribes), will be "the light to the nations".

If you read Isaiah 42:6 "a light to nation", you will see it is speaking of the nation or the descendants of Jacob being this "light":

I am the Lord, I have called you in righteousness,
I have taken you by the hand and kept you;
I have given you as a covenant to the people,[a]
a light to the nations,

Do you see the last part of the verse?

I have given you as a covenant to the people,[a]
a light to the nations,

Do you see "a covenant to the people"? Jacob did receive the covenant; Ishmael didn't. It is quite clear to me, that it is not referring to a person being the light, but the people or nation being the light.

Now compare 42:6 with 49:6, which also speak of "a light to nations":

he says,
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore the survivors of Israel;
I will give you as a light to the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

It speaking of "tribes of Jacob" and "survivors of Israel", so clearly this verse has nothing to do with Muhammad or to do with Kedar.

What did Muhammad do with the people whom God gave covenant to? Muhammad's order was to have the men who didn't convert, executed and murdered (again referring to Banu Qurayza), women and children enslaved. I don't see Muhammad as a champion of the displaced Jews.

Did Muhammad returned Jews or Israelites back to the land they were promised to? Not as far as I can see. So Muhammad really didn't fulfill anything with regards to be "a light to nations". The only message I see in Muhammad's action (or that of his army), is to convert or die, or convert or I'll ship off to slave market.

Since we are now talking of servant as in plural "servants" (or at least I am), I would suggest that you read 2 chapters of Isaiah 14:

1 But the Lord will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land; and aliens will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. 2 And the nations will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess the nations as male and female slaves in the Lord’s land; they will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.

Despite where God rebuked Israel for being unfaithful, God said he would still chose Israel, because of his servant Jacob, and the messages are always about reconciliation, forgiveness and restoring the people to their land.

Read all the chapters that I have quoted, but don't just read the verses, read the WHOLE CHAPTERS. And compare them against 42. Doing so, you will see some of the messages found in Isaiah 42, being repeated elsewhere. And not single verse in ALL OF ISAIAH (including 42) referring to outsider being a prophet.

 

[loverOfTruth]

And it would seem that you have willfully ignore everything, and just read only a tiny selection of verses, in which you think it may have Muhammad, but you really don't know for sure.

If you are any scholar of any note, then you would realize that those OTHER chapters that you have chosen to ignore, many parts of Isaiah 42 have parallels in other part of Isaiah's book.

With these PARALLELs you can compared many parts of 42 to verses in other chapters.

I am neither Jewish nor Christian, and yet I read the book of Isaiah far better than you.

You are only verse-mining. You have done no research on the other chapters in relation to Isaiah 42, only demonstrated you are not interested in looking at the verses objectively.

Actually, I have read them all and not doing any verse mining but rather using logical analysis based on verses in Isaiah 42 to deduce that the 'Servant/Slave' mentioned in Isaiah 42 is not the same as in the other sections of Isaiah.

However, I see that your faulty claims come from mainly two fundamental errors in your thinking ...
1) Your lack of understanding about Islamic belief
2) Your focus on only 2 things from Isaiah 42 and ignoring the rest. Mainly the word 'servant' and 'the light of the nations'. You seem to think that since they are also used in other parts of Isaiah for Jacob/Israel, Isaiah 42 must refer to the same (disregarding the actual content and context of Isaiah 42).

Let me explain some of those issue.

Jacob - whose other name is Israel - has been referred to as a servant, 9 times. in 6 chapters.

So ? The same term for my servant עֶבֶד `ebed {eh'-bed} is used for Abraham(Genesis 26:24), Moses (Numbers 12:7, Joshua 1:2,7) also. That's again one of your fallacy - just because here, so there also. You really have to look at the context and content.

In fact, all the Prophets are considered to be the servant of God.
"Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets". Amos 3:7

Here in Isaiah 49:3, the name Jacob is not used, but Israel is used, in the connection of being God's servant:

The last quote is in reference to the descendants of Jacob, not of Ishmael, in which they "Judah inheritors of my mountains" are chosen and they as in - THE SERVANTS - would settle there.


None of these referred to any servant being that of the house of Ishmael, nothing referring to any Ishmaelite, let alone Muhammad.

As I have mentioned earlier, in the other posts, Israel can mean Jacob, but it could mean tribes of Israel, or the united kingdom of Israel (like when Saul, David and Solomon were rulers), or it could be the northern kingdom, in which Samaria is the capital.

Reading any part of Isaiah, or other books, like Jeremiah and Ezekiel, the use of Israel, can jump from person to kingdom or to tribe, and back again, at any instance of those chapters or verses.

...

Did you bother to read Isaiah 49, as in the whole chapter?

What do you see when you read Isaiah 49:5-6?

Again, I would suggest that you read 49? (And I mean reading all of Isaiah 49.)

Once again, where it is clearly stated that Jacob is the Servant, I am not questioning that. But that doesn't mean Isaiah 42 is talking about Jacob. I'll show you why(again) in a while.

However, it also shows your fundamental lack of understanding of what Muslims believe. We do believe that Jacob was a Servant of God and chosen. No issue with that.

"Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Tribes, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]." Al Qur'an 4:163

And you are ignoring the My Servant and relation to Kedar in Isaiah 42 itself.

Again, all Isaiah 49 tells me is that Jacob was a chosen servant of God - does not mean no one else can be. It doesn't prove anything. And once again I'll show you how (in 2nd part) Isaiah 42 cannot be speaking about Jacob.

You quoted 42:1, and think the servant...or in your translation, is referring to "slave", of foreign background. But nothing in 41:1 make that distinction that the foreigner would be "servant" or your "slave".

Muhammad was never a slave, in the traditional sense of this word (slave), so clearly you are using slave loosely. When was Muhammad ever a slave. He was an orphan, and that doesn't make him a slave. His occupation included being a shepherd and trader (or merchant), and neither of these make him a slave.

I don't believe in the story being told in Genesis or Exodus, but the descendants of Jacob were slaves in Egypt. During dominance of first Assyria, and later Babylonia, both Israel and Judah became slaves by their respective enemies.

And Jacob worked as unappreciated servant to his father-in-law, Laban, in Genesis, yet God have chosen him as "special", and made him more wealthy than Laban, despite being Laban's servant.

Another misunderstanding about Islam. Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was not a 'slave' as in human slavery. He was known as the 'Slave/Servant' of Allah(swt). Some translations for Isaiah 42:1 uses slave and some uses servant. He(pbuh) was known as AbdUllah meaning Slave/Servant of Allah, the same as was used for Abraham, Moses in the Bible.

To be continued ...

 

[loverOfTruth]

continuing...

It is clear in Isaiah 49, that God will make Israel as "servants" (do you the plural here in "servant"?), that Israel, as a nation (or the 12 tribes), will be "the light to the nations".

If you read Isaiah 42:6 "a light to nation", you will see it is speaking of the nation or the descendants of Jacob being this "light":

Do you see the last part of the verse?
...

Now compare 42:6 with 49:6, which also speak of "a light to nations":

You have issues with your translation. The word you state as 'nations' is actually the 'Goyim' and it is the plural form.

"Goy (Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim גוים or גויי&#1501 is the standard Hebrew biblical term for a "nation", including the "great nation" of Israel.[1] Use of the plural, "nations," to refer to non-Jews is found from "I will cast out the nations before thee" (Exodus 34:24) and long before Roman times it had also acquired the meaning of "gentile".[2] The latter is also its meaning in Yiddish. The word is also used to pejoratively describe those not of Jewish descent. It is commonly used to refer to Christians and Muslims, but is regularly used by Jews to refer to any and all peoples of faiths other than Judaism. " from : Goy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, from the Strong's Number 1471 Hebrew Dictionary of the Old Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com
if you scroll down, it says that Isaiah 42: 1 and 6 it refers to Gentiles.

Now read Isaiah 42:1 - 42:6 again.

1 Behold my slave, whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall give judgment unto the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the streets.3 He shall not break a bruised reed, nor shall he quench the smoking flax; he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not tire nor faint until he has set judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thee by thine hand; I will keep thee and place thee as my covenant unto the people as light unto the Gentiles

So from the above it is very clear that whoever Isaiah 42 is talking about is :
1) a person, also known as a slave or servant of God
2) shall bring judgement unto Gentiles(non-Jews)
3) he shall establish judgement on the earth
4) he shall bring the law for the gentiles to the isles (or arabian peninsula)
5) God shall place him as a covenant as a light to the Gentiles (non-Jews)

Does Jacob meet any of the above other than #1 ? No.
Does Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) meet any of them ? All of them.

Not to mention that you ignored all the other verses from Isaiah 42 that shows how God talks about it will come to the people of Kedar and how they will praise him(God) and etc. and how that matches with the Muslims and their practices. You just keep focusing on word 'light to the nations' that even incorrectly, since it should be 'light to the Gentiles'. Secondly, in general bringing light to people can mean anything as in bringing Guidance from God etc. However, it is astonishing that the time when Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) came to the Arabs were in deep ignorance. Allah sent His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth, and Allah filled the world with light because of him, and brought people forth from darkness into light. By means of him, Allah dispelled the darkness of ignorance and disbelief.

Do you see "a covenant to the people"? Jacob did receive the covenant; Ishmael didn't. It is quite clear to me, that it is not referring to a person being the light, but the people or nation being the light.

You are wrong again.
Yes, Isaac(pbuh) and his descendants was to be honored ... so was Ismail(pbuh) and his descendants.

"I will make the son of the slave(Ishmael) into a nation also, because he is your offspring " Genesis 21:13 NIV

Both Isaac and Ismail were considered Sons even at Abraham's(pbuh) death. And remember the covenant is dependent upon keeping the promise - it is not a blank check.

"Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind." (Al Qur'an 5:12-13)

It speaking of "tribes of Jacob" and "survivors of Israel", so clearly this verse has nothing to do with Muhammad or to do with Kedar.

I did not claim that 49:6 is talking about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), I said 42:6 is and even though they sound similar the content/context clearly shows that they are talking about two different scenario/person.

What did Muhammad do with the people whom God gave covenant to? Muhammad's order was to have the men who didn't convert, executed and murdered (again referring to Banu Qurayza), women and children enslaved. I don't see Muhammad as a champion of the displaced Jews.

Did Muhammad returned Jews or Israelites back to the land they were promised to? Not as far as I can see. So Muhammad really didn't fulfill anything with regards to be "a light to nations". The only message I see in Muhammad's action (or that of his army), is to convert or die, or convert or I'll ship off to slave market.

That is just some biased ignorant information which is expected because of your lack of understanding of Islam.

Since we are now talking of servant as in plural "servants" (or at least I am), I would suggest that you read 2 chapters of Isaiah 14:
Despite where God rebuked Israel for being unfaithful, God said he would still chose Israel, because of his servant Jacob, and the messages are always about reconciliation, forgiveness and restoring the people to their land.

Read all the chapters that I have quoted, but don't just read the verses, read the WHOLE CHAPTERS. And compare them against 42. Doing so, you will see some of the messages found in Isaiah 42, being repeated elsewhere. And not single verse in ALL OF ISAIAH (including 42) referring to outsider being a prophet.

You are so wrong there. See my response above regarding the translation of 'nations'. Isaiah 42 is certainly talking about someone who bring judgement to the Gentiles NOT Jews. If you don't understand this basic information about Isaiah 42, don't claim to understand it all.

So to conclude ... in order to prove that Isaiah 42 is talking about Jacob and not Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), all you have to show is that he(Jacob) tirelessly worked to bring Judgement to the Gentiles and was successful in doing so, that he(Jacob) brought a new law to the Gentiles, and the Law he(Jacob) was given was magnified and established.

Good luck and peace.
Peace.

 

[gnostic]

You have issues with your translation. The word you state as 'nations' is actually the 'Goyim' and it is the plural form.

I have quoted below, my previous post, divided into red and blue.

If you read Isaiah 42:6 "a light to nation", you will see it is speaking of the nation or the descendants of Jacob being this "light":

RED:
Sorry, that line you had quoted from me, especially the part in RED, was simply a misprint.

So the misprinted "a light to nation" should actually be read as "a light to nations".

So that's mistake on
BLUE:
Here, in the second part of my sentence, I was actually talking about the
IDENTITY of this LIGHT.

Reading both 42:6 and 49:6, I am convinced that the "a LIGHT to nations" is not a individual person (like Jacob or Jesus or Muhammad). I believed that this LIGHT referred to the people of Israel, hence the 12 tribes of Israel, the kingdom of Israel or the descendants of Jacob.

So to make it more clear to you, "a LIGHT to nations" could be re-written as

"a NATION to nations"​

or

"ISRAEL to nations"​

So simply put the identity of the LIGHT is Israel, hence "a LIGHT [Israel] to nations".

Do you understand what I am saying now?

 

[gnostic]

You are so wrong there. See my response above regarding the translation of 'nations'. Isaiah 42 is certainly talking about someone who bring judgement to the Gentiles NOT Jews. If you don't understand this basic information about Isaiah 42, don't claim to understand it all.

So to conclude ... in order to prove that Isaiah 42 is talking about Jacob and not Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), all you have to show is that he(Jacob) tirelessly worked to bring Judgement to the Gentiles and was successful in doing so, that he(Jacob) brought a new law to the Gentiles, and the Law he(Jacob) was given was magnified and established.

You seriously need glasses or take classes in English.

42:6 is speaking of "you", in past tense, not future tense.

I am the Lord, I have called you in righteousness,
I have taken you by the hand and kept you;
I have given you as a covenant to the people,
a light to the nations,

If 42:6 was meant to be the future, it would have imperfect tense (which could either be present tense or future in English), but these were written in Hebrew in perfect tense and translated into English as past tense:

"I have called you...", past tense
"I have taken you by...", past tense
"I have given you as...", past tense
​

And in Isaiah 42:11, where it speak of Kedar:

Let the desert and its towns lift up their voice,
the villages that Kedar inhabits;
let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy,
let them shout from the tops of the mountains.

• Nothing say the "servant" or prophet will come from Kedar. It only state that villages of Kedar will praise the servant, not that he will come from there.
• And what of Sela. Sela is another location that will also praise the servant. Sela is in Jordan, known as the Rocks, because of he mountains. As far as I know about Muhammad's life, Muhammad was not born there, nor had he ever set foot in that place. Why do you think the servant would come from Kedar, but not from Sela? Two places are mentioned in this verses, not one.

The question is why do you only see Kedar, but not Sela.


Your scholarship is hopeless.

 

[Scimitar]

Dude, the prophet doesn't have to come there - he was born there - kedar is one of the 12 sons of Ishmael and his tribe is known as Quraish - the same from which Muhammad the Prophet pbuh hailed from.

Understand?

Good.

Muhammad was the prophesied one to come - and the Jews of yathrib accepted him as the Prophet and became Muslims.

Is that not enough proof? ???

Hmmm... denial eh?

 

[Tumah]

Muhammad was the prophesied one to come - and the Jews of yathrib accepted him as the Prophet and became Muslims.

Is that not enough proof? ???

Hmmm... denial eh?

Well, some of the Jews of Jesus' time accepted him. And in fact, there are instances of Jews today still accepting him.
Some Jews accepted Moses of Crete.
Some Jews accepted Shabsai Tzvi.

In fact, here is a list of other people who were able to convince Jews to accept them.


So what does that tell you?
Sometimes, Jews make the wrong choices.

 

[gnostic]

Dude, the prophet doesn't have to come there - he was born there - kedar
is one of the 12 sons of Ishmael and his tribe is known as Quraish -
the same from which Muhammad the Prophet pbuh hailed from.

Understand?

Good.

Muhammad was the prophesied one to come - and the Jews of yathrib accepted him as the Prophet and became Muslims.

Is that not enough proof? ???

Hmmm... denial eh?

That's not the point.

Muslims claiming that the prophet come from Kedar, and quoting Isaiah 42:11 to say that the prophet will come from Kedar, really doesn't it make so.

Can you provide me with source that Muhammad himself quoted Isaiah 42:11, and say "That's me, there"?

I don't think so.

This is simply Muslims interpretations of the verse, not Muhammad's interpretation.

It is also Muslims interpretations of the verse about "a light to the nations".

And given that Muhammad couldn't read, it is pretty doubtful that Muhammad even know of the existence of either verses.

I have no doubt of Muslims can quote the verses from the Bible, and claim this is "Muslim", but I have never come across anything where Muhammad quoted this or that biblical passage.

So again, can you provided me sources that Muhammad actually used either verses (42:6 and 42:11) about himself?

 

[FearGod]

That's not the point.

Muslims claiming that the prophet come from Kedar, and quoting Isaiah 42:11 to say that the prophet will come from Kedar, really doesn't it make so.

Can you provide me with source that Muhammad himself quoted Isaiah 42:11, and say "That's me, there"?

I don't think so.

This is simply Muslims interpretations of the verse, not Muhammad's interpretation.

It is also Muslims interpretations of the verse about "a light to the nations".

And given that Muhammad couldn't read, it is pretty doubtful that Muhammad even know of the existence of either verses.

I have no doubt of Muslims can quote the verses from the Bible, and claim this is "Muslim", but I have never come across anything where Muhammad quoted this or that biblical passage.

So again, can you provided me sources that Muhammad actually used either verses (42:6 and 42:11) about himself?

I don't think prophet Muhammed was in need for such a silly method as to tell them this verse or the other is me,that will be ridiculous.

Didn't his followers reach the far west (Spain) and the far east (China)

Do you think he was in need for a verse from the bible to announce his glory against the oppressors of his time.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think prophet Muhammed was in need for such a silly method as to tell them this verse or the other is me,that will be ridiculous.

Since you are not denying that Muhammad didn't know of these verses, then I can assume that the interpretations that linked Isaiah's passages, are made by Muslims, like yourself, then it is possible or more than probable that these interpretations made by non-prophet people, such as yourself, loveroftruth and scimitar could be wrong?

Meaning that Isaiah 42:6 & 42:11 have nothing to do with Muhammad at all.

 

[FearGod]

Since you are not denying that Muhammad didn't know of these verses, then I can assume that the interpretations that linked Isaiah's passages, are made by Muslims, like yourself, then it is possible or more than probable that these interpretations made by non-prophet people, such as yourself, loveroftruth and scimitar could be wrong?

Meaning that Isaiah 42:6 & 42:11 have nothing to do with Muhammad at all.

So you think that if prophet Mohammed knows about those verses then he should tell them to read verses Isaiah 42:6-12 and to use it as an evidence to prove his prophecy.

 

[gnostic]

So you think that if prophet Mohammed knows about those verses then he should tell them to read verses Isaiah 42:6-12 and to use it as an evidence to prove his prophecy.

You tell me?

It is the Muslims who believe that Isaiah 42 have to with Muhammad, not me. And since I ask you and other Muslim members for sources THAT Muhammad had interpret these verses, no one can provide ones.

And since no one can provide the sources for these interpretation, then I must assume that Muhammad didn't know about these verses, such as you, loveroftruth and others quoting from the bible; that he was unaware of them, so that Muslims must be the ones interpreting the text, themselves (so not Muhammad).

Tell me, how certain are you that verse about Kedar (42:11) or the verse about "the light to the nations" (42:6) are about Muhammad, and not about someone else? Did you ever think that you or your interpretation could be wrong? You and loveroftruth are treating your interpretations as facts, when in fact, it is nothing more than yours interpretations and personal opinions.

And since you (or others) can't collaborate your interpretation Isaiah's verses with what you believe to be credible sources, such as the Qur'an or supposedly authentic teachings of Muhamamd from hadiths, then I would have to assume that Muhammad was unaware of these verses, let alone interpreted them.

And considered that Muslims love to drum us non-Muslims that Muhammad was illiterate, I don't see how it is possible that Muhammad was even aware of the existence of these verses, let alone know of your interpretations.

Do you understand what I am saying?

It is you, loveroftruth or some other Muslims who may have started this interpretation, and Muhammad didn't know about it. If this is true, then should stop claiming these verses are about Muhammad, as being factual. They are nothing more than yours or others' personal opinions.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I have quoted below, my previous post, divided into red and blue.

RED:
Sorry, that line you had quoted from me, especially the part in RED, was simply a misprint.

So the misprinted "a light to nation" should actually be read as "a light to nations".

So that's mistake on
BLUE:
Here, in the second part of my sentence, I was actually talking about the
IDENTITY of this LIGHT.

Reading both 42:6 and 49:6, I am convinced that the "a LIGHT to nations" is not a individual person (like Jacob or Jesus or Muhammad). I believed that this LIGHT referred to the people of Israel, hence the 12 tribes of Israel, the kingdom of Israel or the descendants of Jacob.

So to make it more clear to you, "a LIGHT to nations" could be re-written as

"a NATION to nations"​

or

"ISRAEL to nations"​

So simply put the identity of the LIGHT is Israel, hence "a LIGHT [Israel] to nations".

Do you understand what I am saying now?

You can come up with any translation/interpretation you want - may be write your own bible to make it look like it is Israel/Jacob - but that's not how anyone else interprets 'light' in that verse. And it wouldn't even make sense ... now read it again :

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thee by thine hand; I will keep thee and place thee as my covenant unto the people as light unto the Gentiles 7 that thou might open the eyes of the blind, that thou might bring out the prisoners from the prison and those that sit in darkness out of the prison house

So according to your translation it will be :
"I will keep thee and place thee as my covenant unto the people as Israel unto the Gentiles."
If that makes any sense to you, go ahead and believe in it. Remember that 'nations' means Gentiles as I have shown you earlier.

Peace.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You seriously need glasses or take classes in English.

42:6 is speaking of "you", in past tense, not future tense.

If 42:6 was meant to be the future, it would have imperfect tense (which could either be present tense or future in English), but these were written in Hebrew in perfect tense and translated into English as past tense:

"I have called you...", past tense
"I have taken you by...", past tense
"I have given you as...", past tense
​

Nice try ... that's all you could find out of that whole thing ... :sorry1:

42:1 he shall give judgment unto the Gentiles
42:2 2 He shall not cry,
42:3 He shall not break a bruised reed, nor shall he quench the smoking flax;
42:4 He shall not tire nor faint until he has set judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law
Now even read the full sentence in 42:6
42: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thee by thine hand; I will keep thee and place thee as my covenant unto the people as light unto the Gentiles

That one part that you found 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness' could mean so many things...that God have already decided to make Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) the chosen final messenger in eternity. Even the bible mentions about other prophets that God has already blessed before their birth. So it is funny how you ignore all the clear and unambiguous statements in future tense and pick the one item that could have many interpretations especially given that it uses the I will right along with that.

How shallow ? Talk about scholarship...

​

And in Isaiah 42:11, where it speak of Kedar:

• Nothing say the "servant" or prophet will come from Kedar. It only state that villages of Kedar will praise the servant, not that he will come from there.
• And what of Sela. Sela is another location that will also praise the servant. Sela is in Jordan, known as the Rocks, because of he mountains. As far as I know about Muhammad's life, Muhammad was not born there, nor had he ever set foot in that place. Why do you think the servant would come from Kedar, but not from Sela? Two places are mentioned in this verses, not one.

The question is why do you only see Kedar, but not Sela.


Your scholarship is hopeless.

If Kedar or people of Kedar didn't have anything to do with it, it would be quite meaningless to all of a sudden drop that name and his people over there while mentioning of all this. I have explained the issue of Kedar, the new Song and Sela(the rock) here ... I guess you keep ignoring everything that will prove you wrong.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3733526-post1881.html

 

[loverOfTruth]

That's not the point.

Muslims claiming that the prophet come from Kedar, and quoting Isaiah 42:11 to say that the prophet will come from Kedar, really doesn't it make so.

Can you provide me with source that Muhammad himself quoted Isaiah 42:11, and say "That's me, there"?

I don't think so.

This is simply Muslims interpretations of the verse, not Muhammad's interpretation.

It is also Muslims interpretations of the verse about "a light to the nations".

And given that Muhammad couldn't read, it is pretty doubtful that Muhammad even know of the existence of either verses.

I have no doubt of Muslims can quote the verses from the Bible, and claim this is "Muslim", but I have never come across anything where Muhammad quoted this or that biblical passage.

So again, can you provided me sources that Muhammad actually used either verses (42:6 and 42:11) about himself?

First of all, I have already explained in the previous post that your interpretation of "a light to the nations" makes no sense at all.

Now on to the topic. It is silly ... how and why would Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ever quote the bible ?

#1 Arabic Bible wasn't even available then, and who knows which canon with which book/verse numbering was there (elsewhere around that time) ...

#2 Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was illiterate but that doesn't matter because the whole Qur'an came to him(pbuh) as a recitation and he(pbuh) just delivered the message that he(pubh) got.

#3 Why would he(pbuh) quote from a book that he claimed (according to God) was corrupted/changed (reference : Surat Al-Ma'idah [5:12-14] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

So it actually makes better sense that he didn't quote the Bible. Rather, he told us what God told us ... which is :

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful." (Al Qur'an 7:157)


"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." (Al Qur'an 61:6)

However, his(pbuh) companions - some early converts to Islam also connected those verses to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) :
"It is narrated that a small group of Muhammad's companions said to him: "O Apostle of Allah, tell us about yourself." He answered them that he is the Servant of God, the Seal of the prophets, the Prayer of his forefather Abraham, and the Good News of Jesus."[7][8]

The books of Hadiths narrate the stories of many Jews and Christians who embraced Islam. Those converts like Ka'ab al-Ahbar, Abdullah ibn Salam, Salman the Persian, Waraka ibn Nawfal, Bahira the monk, Aṣḥama ibn Abjar, Safiyya bint Huyayy and others, reported that Muhammad was foretold in both the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures as a promised Prophet to come. Isaiah 42, where the Chosen Servant of God "the Light of the Gentiles" is being discussed, was the most common chapter referred to by those converts as a prophecy fulfilled by Muhammad." From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Bible

Now that we know that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is certainly mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel (according to God in Qur'an) and when we read the Bible ... and when you read Isaiah 42 with content/context in mind that it is indeed talking about a Slave of God from the Kedarites who will bring a new law and judgement and who's followers will sing praises of the Lord in the isles(arabian peninsula) - it really cannot get any clearer than that no other person in the history meets these criteria.

Peace.

 

[gnostic]

First of all, I have already explained in the previous post that your interpretation of "a light to the nations" makes no sense at all.

"The light to the nations" would make lot of sense if you bother to read Isaiah 49.

It is about the mission of the servant, and one of them is about bringing back the survivors of jacob's descendants so they can served as "a light to the nations" (Isaiah 49:6).

Please read the whole chapter. Nothing in this chapter speak of a prophet coming out of Kedar.

There is no TWO LIGHTs.

If Muhammad was this servant, then he would not be making against them, as Muhammad have. All the chapters (from Isaiah 41 to 49) are linked. All references to the servants in those chapters are clearly about Jacob or about Israel, including that of Isaiah 42.

Nothing in Isaiah 42 say anything about the servant or prophet would come from or be born in Kedar. You are deliberately misreading this chapter.

And that can be expected since you are a Muslim and very biased and refused to look at all chapters concerning about the servant.