Was Jesus really God?

[cherokee10]

he was such a complex individual. He was multi-dimensional, multi-faceted.....His very complexity, I believe, makes it highly improbable that someone invented Him

Not to turn this thread into a debate, but these two quotes are very telling. I think it's important to remember that our understanding of Jesus is derived from writings and interpretations between years and decades after the events actually happened and from a variety of different people. It's not surprising that Jesus is complex and multifaceted when you realize that you are reading several people's interpretations - many of which were written well after the fact.

 

[Hope]

Ah, good points. However, I will say this---do we trust our history books? Many things we know about historical figures were also written 'well after the fact.' We must not think that the account given of Jesus' life in the Gospels is so exceptional. Many historical accounts were written after a greater lapse of time than the Gospels were. And yet we often do not question them.

 

[Scott1]

Ah, good points. However, I will say this---do we trust our history books? Many things we know about historical figures were also written 'well after the fact.' We must not think that the account given of Jesus' life in the Gospels is so exceptional. Many historical accounts were written after a greater lapse of time than the Gospels were. And yet we often do not question them

Great points Hope....... I would like to point out that we are not talking "after the fact" in the strict sense. Although the authorship of some of the Bible is fuzzy at best, we do have the history of the Catholic Church to show that the man Jesus was no work of fiction. Polycarp and others attested to(and WROTE about) the teachings of Jesus and the message of the Gospel less than 1 generation removed from Christ..... Polycarp was a follower and student of the APOSTLE John...... remember him? The notion that the Bible must stand on it's own as a work of factual history is a misunderstanding of what the Bible is.
As far as Jesus saying he was the Son of God being verified outside of the Bible, one must only look at the Apostles and early Christians. They suffered and DIED horrible deaths because they would not forsake him....... why would they do that for a mere man? To die needlessly to promote a false cause would make the Apostles and early Christians the most crazy bunch in the world.... in my opinion.

Peace,
Scott

 

[Jaymes]

As far as Jesus saying he was the Son of God being verified outside of the Bible, one must only look at the Apostles and early Christians. They suffered and DIED horrible deaths because they would not forsake him....... why would they do that for a mere man?

People have died equally horrible deaths for other gods.. what makes him any more valid than the others?

 

[Faust]

The divinity of Jesus was decided by a council of bishops under the Roman Emperor Constantine, the first Christian Emperor. The evidence that Jesus was an actual historical figure is very strong. Two good books on the subject are, Paul by A.N. Wilson and When Jesus became God by Elaine Pagels.

 

[Scott1]

People have died equally horrible deaths for other gods.. what makes him any more valid than the others?

Nope...... this was different.

Peace,
Scott
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..... see how fruitless this would be if everyone just posted an opinion without any facts? How about giving an example or SOMETHING that I can work with.... a debate needs a little bit more than just your one sentence quips without any facts.... and I see that you ignored the evidence of the early Catholic writers as evidence for Christ...... do you just want to pick and choose something so you can debate, or are you looking for the truth?

 

[Scott1]

The divinity of Jesus was decided by a council of bishops under the Roman Emperor Constantine, the first Christian Emperor.

Wow...... where did you get this? Not even close to being historically acurate!

Try again.
Scott

 

[Jaymes]

..... see how fruitless this would be if everyone just posted an opinion without any facts? How about giving an example or SOMETHING that I can work with.... a debate needs a little bit more than just your one sentence quips without any facts.... and I see that you ignored the evidence of the early Catholic writers as evidence for Christ...... do you just want to pick and choose something so you can debate, or are you looking for the truth?

I'm not really that much of a debater. I just like throwing out tidbits every once in a while. Won't get that many essay-responses out of me.

And honestly, I don't trust any Christian source that says "look, proof of Jesus!" Of course they'll have proof.. they want proof. Outside of the Bible, there is little to no evidence he even existed.

 

[Scott1]

And honestly, I don't trust any Christian source that says "look, proof of Jesus!" Of course they'll have proof.. they want proof. .

I have proof the moon is in the sky...... is that because I "want" proof, too?

Outside of the Bible, there is little to no evidence he even existed

Well, I have tried to show you how wrong you are, but it seems that you are not interested in educating yourself...... which is fine...... I just won't bother to respond to any more of your questions.

Peace be with you,
Scott

 

[Jaymes]

What is it with people deciding to ignore you once they decide they don't like your argument? That's the second time that's happened today. o_o

 

[Scott1]

Jensa,

It is not your argument...... it is your LACK of argument.
Twice today? Gotta tell you something about yourself.

Scott

 

[Jaymes]

No, it just tells me something about this place. In every other place I've discussed things, I've never once been told that I was going to be ignored.

 

[Green Gaia]

Let's get back to the topic please, and take private conversations to PM. Thank you.

 

[Druidus]

Perhaps the Druids, who died horrible deaths for Druidry? They were tortured for days, in horrible manners, until they were killed, in a horrible manner. The same goes for pretty much any religion Christianity encountered. Think of the Crusades, of the time they took over Europe, of the time they came to the Americas. Anywhere the Christians went, many men and women died for their beliefs, in ways more horrible than crucifixion. Can you imagine having boiling tar poured down you throat, after days and days of torture (in order to rid you of the "devil")?

 

[Scott1]

Perhaps the Druids, who died horrible deaths for Druidry?

Ok.... fine example. Why did they die? What were the circumstances?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe the teachings we attribute to Jesus came from somewhere....

I agree.

I believe in the teachings of love and compassion we attribute to a man named Jesus, I don't care who wrote about it.

Great, but that does not make questioning the attribution any less valid.

I'm not sure what you're referring to and why you're attacking my post...

I'm not sure why you would construe my comments as an attack.

It possible that this person was killed for his teachings though.

Possible, but unlikely - at least unlikely that he would have been killed as portrayed in the NT. One might conceive of some cynic/hasid being stoned by the Sanhedrin, or some rabble-rouser/revolutionary being crucified by the Romans, but the Passion Narratives are almost certainly fictive.

 

[Green Gaia]

Possible, but unlikely - at least unlikely that he would have been killed as portrayed in the NT. One might conceive of some cynic/hasid being stoned by the Sanhedrin, or some rabble-rouser/revolutionary being crucified by the Romans, but the Passion Narratives are almost certainly fictive.

Perhaps, but I'm not really concerned with how this person was killed, if he was.

 

[retrorich]

The following are my opinions as an atheist:

If Jesus existed at all, I believe he was a mortal human being, a philosopher. Since I don't believe in God, I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God.

Over the centuries, various humans have presented their philosophies in a book know as the Bible. The portion of the Bible known as the New Testament contains the philosophies of Jesus.

The words the Bible contains are the words of mortal men and women, not the words of God.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Over the centuries, various humans have presented their philosophies in a book know as the Bible. The portion of the Bible known as the New Testament contains the philosophies of Jesus.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I think it would be a bit more accurate to say the New Testament contains the distinct philosophies of those who authored each individual book/epistle within it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps, but I'm not really concerned with how this person was killed, if he was.

You are also apparently "not really concerned with" discussing your statement: "I believe a man existed who lived the life we think of as Jesus and gave us those teachings." You posted this in an area consigned to "Religious Debates", then reframe my query as an attack.

Now we find that by "lived the life we think of as Jesus" you mean "lived the life we think of" - sort of.

• Did he live a life beginning with a virgin birth?
• Did he live a life beginning with Herodian infanticide?
• Did he live a life starting in Bethlehem because of a census?
• Did he live a life consonant with either of the Infancy Gospels?
• Did he live a life performing miracles?
• Did he live a life exposing and demeaning the Pharasees?
• Did he live a life where he cursed fig trees and drove demons into swine?
• Did he live a life where he spoke of casting the first stone?
• Did he live a life where he stood up to the Sanhedrin while proving Pilate to be a rather pleasant fellow?

What biography is worthy of confidence? I suggest, again, that there is insuffucient evidence warranting such a belief, and I remain more than willing to discuss whatever evidence you feel probative.