1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 26, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    63.0%
  2. No

    11.1%
  3. I don't know

    11.1%
  4. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    14.8%
  1. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    This is from Buhari. But I dont know what kind of source you ask for brother.

    257. Narrated Anas bin Mâlik 'Allah's Messenger said, "Whoever offers the Saldt (prayer) like us and faces our Qiblah Ka'ba at Makka during salát (prayer) and eats our slaughtered animals, is a Muslim and is under Allah's and His Messenger's Protection. So do not betray Allah , by betraying those who are in His Protection."

    Thus, its pretty evident that it is an act of showing solidarity with Muslims, as Muslims who are protected by God and messenger.

    259. Narrated Ibn 'Abbâs •• .0 When the Prophet entered the Ka'ba, he invoked Allah in each and every side of it and did not offer the Saldt (prayer) till he came out of it, and offered a two-Rak 'at prayer facing the Ka'ba and said, "This is the Qiblah."

    Its evident he is facing the Kaaba, not the stone.

    583. Narrated Anas : That he prayed riding a donkey, with his face to the left of the Qiblah. Someone asked him (saying), "I have seen you offering the prayer in a direction other than that of the Qiblah. ,, He replied, If I had not seen Allah's Messenger , doing it, I would not have done it."

    When necessary, and you have difficulty, you can pray facing any direction.
     
  2. calm

    calm Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    462
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Natsari
    @adrian009
    Isaiah 53 describes the future death and salvation of the Messiah.
    When God commanded Noah to build the ark four-sided, he prophesied the cross. Through the four-sided wood Noah and his family were saved because they believed and through the four-sided cross everyone who believes in it is saved.
    The greatest prophecy and best proof of the crucifixion is the name of the Father Himself. The name of God is Yahuah which means "Behold Hand, Behold Nail".
     
  3. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,769
    Ratings:
    +537
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    I was expecting a link to some source, but that is enough, thank you.
     
  4. Limo

    Limo Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Messages:
    516
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Islam
    This is a wrongly derived debate because there is no agreement about common references.
    İnstead, we can discuss the creditability of the references. There is no doubt that Quran hasn't been changed. On the other hand the New testament has many variations between Scriptures. Nevertheless, every Church has it's own version.
    We can add also, many Christians schoolers or x- Christians (away from Moslems) analyzed the crucifixion story in the 4 Gospels and found a lot of contradiction between the gospels regarding the time of crocifixtion , who see Jesus first, what happened in the cave,,,,
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    All the Gospel writers provide a compelling narrative of Christ’s crucifixion and the apostles all agree. Let’s say Christ wasn’t crucified. Its clear the Gospel writers wanted to communicate He was. Do you think they deliberately mislead others or they were mistaken?
     
  6. Limo

    Limo Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Messages:
    516
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Islam
    The following is from Western studies not from Islam.

    The case has multiple layers:
    - first layer : the gospels itself no agreement that it's connected to apsotles.there was a tradition to name the book with previous good people. So, these books were not written by apostles themselves.

    - second layer: the scriptures for these books have hundreds of thousands of variations. So, scribes have changed it a lot

    - third layer: there are many contradiction s between narrations of the crucifixion and Resurrection story. Following are a few examples copied and pasted (no need to justify or reconcile)
    1. Who Carried Jesus’ Cross?
      In the Passion narratives, did Jesus carry his cross or not?

    2. Jesus and the Thieves
      Some gospels say Jesus was crucified with two thieves, though the Romans never crucified thieves.
      • Mark - The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation
      • Matthew 27:44 - The two thieves taunt Jesus
      • Luke 23:39-42 - One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day, though John and Acts say he did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection
      • John - The two men aren’t described as thieves
    3. Does Jesus Drink Wine or Vinegar?:
      Jesus is given something to drink while he is on the cross, but what?

    4. Jesus and the Centurion
      Romans supposedly witnessed Jesus’ crucifixion, but what did they think?
      • Mark 15:39 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
      • Matthew 27:54 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
      • Luke 23:47 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
      • John - No centurions say anything
    5. Women Watch the Crucifixion:
      The gospels describe several women as having followed Jesus around, but what did they do when Jesus was crucified?


    6. When Was Jesus Crucified?
      The crucifixion of Jesus is the central event of the Passion narrative, but the narratives don’t agree on when the crucifixion occurred.
      • Mark 15:25 - Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
      • John 19:14-15 - Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
      • Matthew, Luke - It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the crucifixion
    7. Jesus’ Last Words
      Jesus’ last words before dying are important, but no one seems to have written them down.

      • Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli, is” and Mark uses “Eloi”)
      • Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
      • John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.”

    8. Earthquake After the Resurrection:
      Was there an earthquake when Jesus died?

      • Matthew 27:51-53 - At the moment Jesus dies, a massive earthquake strikes and opens tombs where dead people rise again
      • Mark, Luke, John - No earthquake is mentioned. No earthquake and no massive influx of formerly dead people are mentioned in any historical records, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be.

    9. What was the color of the robe given to Jesus?
      Purple and scarlet are distinct colors. Luke merely mentions that Jesus wore a "gorgeous" robe.
    10. Is Jesus tried by Pilate before or after he is mocked by soldiers?
      In Mark, Matthew, and Luke, Jesus is tried before he is mocked. In John, Jesus is tried after he is mocked. The only
    11. Only Matthew and the Acts of the Apostles mention Judas' suicide. In addition, Matthew's account and Acts' account are not consistent.
    12. Only Matthew and the Acts of the Apostles mention Judas' suicide. In addition, Matthew's account and Acts' account are not consistent.
      Chief priests assert Jesus has claimed to be King of the Jews (23:2) Only in Luke do the chief priests explicitly accuse Jesus of claiming to be a king. However, in all Gospels, the chief priests make accusations towards Jesus, and it is not unreasonable that this could be one of those accusations

    13. Only in Luke does Pilate explicitly states that he thinks Jesus is innocent. However, in all Gospels, Pilate is reluctant to kill Jesus
    14. Only in Luke does Jesus meet with Herod at all
    15. What was the color of the robe given to Jesus?
      Purple and scarlet are distinct colors. Luke merely mentions that Jesus wore a "gorgeous" robe.
    16. In John, Jesus' followers wait right by the cross, and Jesus talks to both a disciple and his mother. In Mark, Matthew, and Luke, they wait far from the cross and Jesus never talks to them (see end of this section
    17. The earth quakes only in Matthew.
      Graves open up (27:52) Zombies arise from their graves and wander throughout Jerusalem only in Matthew

    18. The criminals' legs are broken and Jesus is stabbed only in John
    19. In Mark, Joseph rolls a rock against the tomb entrance.

      In Matthew, Joseph rolls a rock against the tomb entrance, a group of soldiers seals the tomb, and the group of soldiers guard the tomb.

      In Luke and John, none of this is detaile

    İn summary: uncreditable books, with many variations and many decripincies between the books.
    ooks, who can believe in the story ?

    Another layer, the crucification and resurrection is a copied story from many relegions at that time.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    When were the gospels written and by who?
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    We’ve had this discussion. The four Canonical Gospels were most likely written between 66AD and 100 AD. There is no agreement about the authors. The Gospel of John may have been written by John the apostle but its a minority of scholars who believe this.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    Right. In that case, what if the narrations are not that they were mistaken (responding to your question), or intentionally misleading but stories told through word of mouth, through time, and the inherited stories were written down by four different authors who we dont know about so could simply contain a some myths, truth and devotional beliefs. So you dont trust them 100% nor do you negate them 100% but place it to the time and other historical sources and try and derive what is most probable.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    The topic is if Jesus was crucified or not. Lets look at the Muslim perspective as written in the Kuran.

    And their saying: “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!” And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if they had. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. - Quran

    It says that it appeared to them as if they had. This is an arabic word Shabah. It means looked like, allegory, looked alike, something that looked like something, something you thought happened.

    When you say "Shubahun" it means it was confusing. If I am to say "there was no confusion" I would say "Laisa feehi shubhathun". Mushthabihun is to mean there were confusing things.

    1. It could mean they never saw what happened and they make conjecture as the same verse above says.
    2. Maybe they saw what happened but were confused about what went on. Maybe they thought it was him, but it was not him.
    3. Maybe they thought he died on the cross, but he could have been already dead or as the Quran says "life terminated".

    Bottomline is as the verse says "they did not kill him". So it could be that his life was already gone, only his body remained when crucified.
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    59,311
    Ratings:
    +17,202
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    The character "Jesus" in the mainstream Bible was clearly crucified. The character "Jesus"/"Isa" in the JW Bible/Qur'an was clearly not, so I think that's the main answer: was Jesus crucified? Yes or no, depending on your religious outlook.

    None of this necessarily needs to be tied to other questions:

    - does Jesus in the Bible correspond to a historical figure?
    - does Isa in the Qur'an correspond to a historical figure?
    - are Jesus in the Bible and Isa in the Qur'an meant to be the same person?
    - if there are discrepancies, how should they be resolved?

    And I don't think the average Bible believer care about the historical accuracy of the Qur'an or vice versa. I don't think that the average Christian or Muslim cares a whit about the apparent discrepancy between the Bible and the Qur'an on this issue... or any other discrepancies between the two books. They resolve the discrepancy by just accepting their own religion's version.

    I often hear Christians and Muslims say that their scriptures aren't meant to be taken as history or science textbooks. Well, if they aren't meant to be sources of raw facts, why would factual discrepancies with other sources and evidence matter that much?
     
  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It wasn’t that long after Jesus’s ministry ended the Gospels were written down. Before that the stories were passed down by word of mouth. One of the Gospels takes only a couple of hours to recite. They are not long.

    There were most likely contemporaries of Jesus still alive when the Gospels were written. The Life and Teachings were highly memorable. He brought a Revelation from God that has profoundly influenced many generations.

    Was Jesus crucified? Its a plausible story. Its consistent with the narration in the Quran where they thought they had killed Him yet His Spirit lived. Its the most likely scenario from all available scripture and accounts. Historians are mostly in agreement.
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The verses in the Quran are not so clear as the Gospels. There are only a few verses that I’ve included in the OP. So the Quranic verses for me are consistent with the Gospels. Clearly the way Muslims have interpreted these verses contradicts how Christians interpret their scripture.

    I see the Bible and Quran as having theological rather than historical narratives. So in that sense, I agree it doesn’t matter that much at all.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    Read this if you like. #290
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    Well. Mark was written down 30 years after Jesus. John was written down 70 years after Jesus. Do you take both as possessing the same level of authority in what really happened or are they two different truths two people wrote having different sources?
     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It makes sense when phrased in that manner. It was a shocking and disturbing event for the Christians. Their Messiah appeared dead and their hopes along with it. The disciples were despondent and lost confidence and faith. Peter whom Jesus had appointed as successor even denied Him thrice. The enemies of Christ thought they were victorious and Christ’s Message was buried as if in a tomb. So how the scenario appeared at the time was very different to the reality, Christ’s body (symbolising the church) came to life after three days and reached a climax at Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. So I’m totally good with your explanation.
     
  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I agree with dates. They are two different portraits of Christ the compliment each other rather than contradict. The author(s) of John most likely knew of the Synoptics and built on it reflecting a rapidly evolving theology with the Christian community. John is the most (seemingly) contradictory book in regards the Quran as it emphasises both the Divinity and Sonship of Christ. All the Gospel accounts have equal authority.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    You mean they complement each other which means you should put both together and make the total story?

    You mean to say there are several or more than one author of John. Alright. How do you assess that John built on the Synoptic gospels? Whats the basis? If its an evolving theology how is that John as you said complements Mark?
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,283
    Ratings:
    +9,362
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The Gospels stand together as Divinely inspired and guided works and take centre stage in the New Testament. There is no corruption. There is no contradiction that cannot be resolved.

    In contrast to the Synoptics there are significant omissions such as the olivet discourse. There is the introduction of much new material such as the logos. The emphasis appears to contrast Christian theology with Judaism by emphasising a personal relationship with Christ. Most Christians and theologians have no problem whatsoever with the Gospels as they stand. I don’t either so stand alongside my Christian brothers and sisters.

    In regards the OP the Gospel of John emphasises the last week of Jesus’s life along with the crucifixion and resurrection. 1/3 of the material is devoted to this part of Jesus’s life. It is no coincidence that the crucifixion and resurrection take centre stage and are mentioned in all four Gospels.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    9,215
    Ratings:
    +2,504
    So you say that we dont know who wrote the gospels, all written decades after Jesus passed away, some even go to the length to say that "they inherited knowledge of the happenings from others and investigated by themselves", yet they are all inspired divinely, guided divinely, and no corruption has entered them?
     
Loading...