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Featured Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 26, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    62.3%
  2. No

    11.3%
  3. I don't know

    11.3%
  4. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    15.1%
  1. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    It is not pastors who have said they bow to Mecca where the stone is.


    The Qibla, is the direction that should be faced when a Muslim prays during Ṣalāṫ. It is fixed as the direction of the Kaaba…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiblabow

    Now, if you say they bow to Allah, and it is also said they bow to the rock, then the conclusion is, the rock is Allah for them, logically?

    But, now that we speak about Allah, what do you think Allah is, if he is not the rock?

    In Bible, God is Spirit, He is not placed to one specific place on earth. Perhaps because He is greater than earth.
     
  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Do you know what the Quran says that Allah SWT Is? "In Islam, Allah is the unique, omnipotent and only deity and creator of the universe and is equivalent to God in other Abrahamic religions. According to Islamic belief,Allah is the most common word to represent God, and humble submission to his will, divine ordinances and commandments is the pivot of the Muslim faith". The Quibla is merely the direction anywhere on earth to Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

    In Daniel 6:10 Daniel prayed toward Jerusalem. So praying in a certain direction is not new or unique.

    Haven't I already said that the word "Allah" is the word for God in Arabic? Didn't I already tell you that many Middle Eastern Christians use the word "Allah" when referring to God. If you are going to defy the very words of Jesus Christ to attack another belief system then at least stop being so lazy and do some scholarly research so you you don't embarrass yourself for pete's sake.

    I am quite cranky, and I apologize. I had a molar dug out and makes me feel like a dragon. At one point, I am sure the dentist had his boots in my mouth.
     
    #242 Ellen Brown, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    It was a common death penalty wasn't, the empire used to crucify people in the hundreds simultaneously I thought. However, if one's theology states otherwise then I imagine that for them the case is settled.
     
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  4. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    If Jesus existed at all, he was likely an apocalyptic prophet who was probably crucified and left hanging on the cross until his body decomposed. Richard Carrier proposes that Jesus didn't exist at all and he has lots of YouTube videos about this topic.
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I have the impression most historians accept Jesus existed and was crucified, even atheists. This OP isn't about anything supernatural, rather an historic fact.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    But still they bow to the stone. Can you explain why, if the stone is not the God?

    That is nice scripture. Probably people pray to some direction always. But it doesn’t say it is required to pray to certain direction. In the case of Daniel, he happened to be towards Jerusalem. There is really no reason to think it was because God is in that direction. Christians, or Jews don’t have to pray to certain direction. God is great and he can hear even if the message is not sent to Jerusalem.

    Sorry, if this sounds like an attack. I don’t mean this to be attack, but just genuine questions that has bothered me some time.

    No problem. That is painful and I hope it eases soon.
     
  7. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    What is this Stone you speak of, I am confused? On Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca, there is a point where they march around a squarish box that symbolically contains the "Evil Gods". I think this is the place where Muslims throw stones at this box to signify their disapproval of other Gods?

    Hajj is a symbolic reenactment of the journeys of Muhammad PBUH before Islam began.

    The way my bed faces, I wind up praying to the North when I kneel to thank God. Nothing sacred about North. For me Quibla would be at 17 Degrees.

    Presently, I have been thinking through God's displeasure of long, repetitive prayers. The Lord's prayer, and the 23rd Psalm are in my heart right now. I'm thinking that memorized prayer allows one to be lazy and avoids the need to get one's heart involved perhaps?

    I am not the best Muslim, Christian, or Jew. I just study all three in hopes of knowing enough to be loving and kind to all of them.
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    7. God always hears his prayers and his prayers were heard

    And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always. (John 11:41-42)

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

    Jesus was a pious person so this entails that his prayers would have been/were accepted and he was saved a cursed death (in terms of Torah) on the Cross.
    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  9. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, thank you, that was useful information.
     
  10. Link

    Link Active Member

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    It was a feign death, crucified and killed implies, he would of departed from the world, it appeared like he got crucified and died, but it was a feign death, to show the power of God and that's up to God to decide when he actually dies.
     
  11. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter, it's called poetic licence, it is whatever suits the agenda.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Jesus already knew that it was impossible to avoid the cup.
    John 16:17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?”
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe He is God in the flesh so He does have the right to decide when He dies.

    I believe that is a vain belief without foundation.

    I believe He did depart from this world but before the body died and before the crucifixion was completed.

    I believe that is because the spirit is not visible. The only way we know this is due to the fact that God informed them after the fact when they were writing the books. And yet they reported the appearance anyway. So if He left and ended up dead does it matter that he didn't die and end up dead? The result is the same.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you can have all kinds of fun imaginings and fantasize up a whole bunch of scenarios.
     
  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I had considered where best to respond to your questions. Unfortunately the thread you responded to was an invitation only thread. As your questions are about the crucifixion of Christ this thread I started earlier in the year seems appropriate. Hope that's OK.

    I believe in all four of the Canonical Gospels. I have not reason to doubt the text concerning the crucifixion. It is what Romans did. The resurrection and ascension of Christ are extraordinary events and so text needs to be considered as more of a theological rather than literal narrative. There are clues in the text itself of this change. Consider the extraordinary events in Matthew 27:50-53

    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    These are now extraordinary events. As the story of the resurrection continues we have the disciples who knew Jesus well initially not able to recognise Him, and Jesus seemingly able to move through walls.


    In regards John the Baptist's connection with Elijah:

    The prophet Elijah appears in the Hebrew Bible during an important time in Israel’s history to oppose a wicked king and bring revival to the land. Elijah’s ministry marked the beginning of the end of Baal worship in Israel. Elijah first appears in 1 Kings 17:1 when he suddenly appears to challenge Ahab, an evil king who ruled the northern kingdom from 874 to 853 BC. Elijah prophesies a drought to come upon the whole land as consequence for Ahab’s evil.

    Elijah is most famous as the central character in a face-off with the prophets of the false god Baal on Mount Carmel (1 Kings 18:17-40). The prophets of Baal call upon their god all day long to rain fire from heaven to no avail. Then Elijah builds an altar of stones, digs a ditch around it, puts the sacrifice on the top of wood and calls for water to be poured over his sacrifice three times. Elijah calls upon God, and God sends fire down from heaven, burns the sacrifice, the wood, and the stones and licks up the water in the ditch. As it was proved the God of Abraham was more powerful than false gods Elijah and the people killed all of the false prophets of Baal, in compliance with God’s command in Deuteronomy 13:5.

    After this victory over the false prophets, rain once again fell on the land. However, in spite of victory, Elijah entered a period of wavering faith and depression. Ahab had told his wife, Jezebel, of God's display of power. Rather than turn to God, Jezebel vowed to kill Elijah. Hearing of this, Elijah fled to the wilderness, where he prayed for God to take his life. God refreshed Elijah with food, drink, and sleep instead and His ministry continued. Rather than die a natural death, Elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind 2 Kings 2:1-11.

    John the Baptist’s ministry was marked by “the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6.

    Adapted from: Who was Elijah in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org


    Muslims and Christians part company over the authenticity of the Bible of course. Here's what Baha'u'llah had to say:

    We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

    You follow the Muslim scholars which is your culture and upbringing. I follow Christ through the Christian Bible and Baha'u'llah through His Writings. If you do not sincerely believe in the authenticity of Christian scripture anything you say about Jesus will be meaningless to most Christians.

    In other words corrupt?
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    I would recommend brother that you dont make assumptions about people. I don't follow Muslim scholars. I follow Christian scholars. I never make statements about my personal matters but I just wish to clear that.

    No. Its completely two different things.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    You know something? I am curious to know who this "Muslim Scholars" you speak of are that I am following.

    Can you name a few Muslim scholars I am following?
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    You know mate, you should understand someones religion even if you dont agree or follow it. Thats the mark of someones honesty in exploring the topic of religion.

    Muslims dont follow the rock, they follow the Kibla. The Kibla does not follow the rock, it follows the Kaaba. And what is the Kaaba? Its a point of unification, not where God lives. What is God? God cannot be defined or described.

    Dont follow the religion. But understand their idea and then reject it.
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Sorry. No offence intended.

    Of course the Gospels were written by men and so too was the Quran. Many Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God and I do to. So although Muhammad spoke the Words and men heard them and wrote them down, the Words were from Allah.

    Most Christians believe as I do that God’s unerring spirit guided the process of the Gospels being composed and these books are Divinely inspired. As soon as you suggest that it wasn’t, however polite and diplomatic you try to be, with whatever scholars you wish to use to back up your argument, you have an irreconcilable difference, do you not?
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    So, please explain why they bow to that direction when they pray? I honestly have not seen good answer to this.
     
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