Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

[firedragon]

Sorry. No offence intended.



Of course the Gospels were written by men and so too was the Quran. Many Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God and I do to. So although Muhammad spoke the Words and men heard them and wrote them down, the Words were from Allah.

Most Christians believe as I do that God’s unerring spirit guided the process of the Gospels being composed and these books are Divinely inspired. As soon as you suggest that it wasn’t, however polite and diplomatic you try to be, with whatever scholars you wish to use to back up your argument, you have an irreconcilable difference, do you not?

I didnt understand your point. What difference? I'm sorry. And I cant type much because I'm on the phone. So please mind my abruptness.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So who is right, and why?

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

The literary character "Jesus" was certainly crucified, sure as Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star.

I'm not sure if the question of whether there was a historical figure that Jesus was based on and whether that historical figure was crucified matters that much.

 

[firedragon]

So, please explain why they bow to that direction when they pray? I honestly have not seen good answer to this.

Brother. Dont agree with another persons theology, buy understand it.

The theology of the muslims who pray towards the kaaba is to be united. Solidarity.

Some might venerate the stone, some might venerate the kaaba, some might even venerate you and worship you. I'm only talking about their theology.

It's to have a union of thought and salah.

That's why the theology advises them to bow in the direction.

But you should also know that they're also taught that if they come to a situation where you dont know the direction for whatever reason, any direction is fine because after all God is kulli shayin kadheer. Master of all things.

Dont agree. Buy understand it.

Cheers.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I didnt understand your point. What difference? I'm sorry. And I cant type much because I'm on the phone. So please mind my abruptness.

OK. Do you believe Jesus was crucified as recorded in the Canonical Gospels. If not, why not?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The literary character "Jesus" was certainly crucified, sure as Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star.

I'm not sure if the question of whether there was a historical figure that Jesus was based on and whether that historical figure was crucified matters that much.

That is the nature of belief is it not? What matters to you many not matter to me and what matters to me may not matter to you. With reference to the OP its a question that clearly matters to both Christians and Muslims.

 

[Riders]

This is a question that is often debated by Muslims and Christians.

The Christians refer to the four gospel accounts that provide clear accounts of Christ's crucifixion. Historians, including atheists usually agree Christ was crucified. When they don't its because they don't believe Jesus existed at all.

Muslims believe Jesus wasn't crucified at all based on the following verses in the Quran.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

Surah An-Nisa [4:155-158]

These verses are taken literally. Many Muslims believe that the body of Jesus was substituted and another crucified in His place.

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

So who is right, and why?

For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified.

Well while some of Josephus sayings about Jesus are not authentic: There are many historians who say a few sentences written by him are authentic.

It says he was Baptized by John.I also listened to another school or on YouTube the other whom while they believed Jesus was a real person did not believe in the ressurection and that's how I believe.

But anyways he said I had never heard before that was interesting Jesus ministry was based on and through John kind of hung upon the idea all about the idea if the kingdom of heaven and who is in the kingdom of heaven.

It's interesting probably a different message then what the church teaches

Anyways yea Josephesus Confirmed he was baptized by John The Baptist in John's ministry and was on trial by Pontius Pilate and was crucified
Sense many Historians go by that I do too.

But some historians believe there is no proof Jesus ever existed but again I go by Josephus account that has been authenticated by historians.

But I do not believe he was the God man described by the church or the Trinity.

There's no proof he arose from the dead and there are mistakes written in the parts of the Bible which are mythology made up

What I get from the message if the cross is

 

[Riders]

Spiritual idea that it's better to lay down my life for my brothers and sisters.I also believe in the of laying down my life rather then being someone I'm not.In other words Jesus was true to himself.

I don't believe in using the blood of Jesus to cover my son's it's a copout way to not deal with consequences.id rather face up to my sins and deal with them.

 

[firedragon]

OK. Do you believe Jesus was crucified as recorded in the Canonical Gospels. If not, why not?

Alright. Thats a direct question. So great. Anyway, please dont mix faith matters and historical or/and scriptural matters if you understand what I am saying.

Yes. I believe that Jesus was crucified as said in the gospels.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Alright. Thats a direct question. So great. Anyway, please dont mix faith matters and historical or/and scriptural matters if you understand what I am saying.

Yes. I believe that Jesus was crucified as said in the gospels.

Thank you. That wasn't the answer I was expecting from you. What is the rationale for your belief?

 

[firedragon]

Thank you. That wasn't the answer I was expecting from you. What is the rationale for your belief?

The rationale is that the romans crucified a lot of people who claimed to be the messiah. Anyone who was convicted of sedition was crucified. So its pretty average for them to have crucified Jesus as well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The rationale is that the romans crucified a lot of people who claimed to be the messiah. Anyone who was convicted of sedition was crucified. So its pretty average for them to have crucified Jesus as well.

So how do you understand the Quranic verses that have been traditionally interpreted to mean Jesus wasn't crucified at all?

What proportion of Muslims do you think believe as you do?

 

[firedragon]

So how do you understand the Quranic verses that have been traditionally interpreted to mean Jesus wasn't crucified at all?

What proportion of Muslims do you think believe as you do?

thats a faith matter. Not a historical matter. So we can have many theories. Maybe his life was already taken by God by the time they thought they crucified him. So they thought they crucified him. Thats a faith matter, not a historical matter.

 

[Dawnofhope]

thats a faith matter. Not a historical matter. So we can have many theories. Maybe his life was already taken by God by the time they thought they crucified him. So they thought they crucified him. Thats a faith matter, not a historical matter.

Thanks for your time in responding to the questions. Its good to hear from a Muslim who acknowledges the historicity of Christ's crucifixion.

 

[Pastek]

To say that Jesus did not die is to cancel out the reason why he came, to give his life as a ransom for mankind. (1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 5:18-19; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Colossians 1:14)

If Jesus did not die, then the ransom is not paid, and we are still doomed to keep sinning for as long as the human race exists.

Timothy, Romans, Galatians, Colossians = Paul

I didn't know JW believe in Paul.
This is in contradiction with the Old Testament to believe in the original sin.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Sorry. No offence intended.



Of course the Gospels were written by men and so too was the Quran. Many Muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God and I do to. So although Muhammad spoke the Words and men heard them and wrote them down, the Words were from Allah.

Most Christians believe as I do that God’s unerring spirit guided the process of the Gospels being composed and these books are Divinely inspired. As soon as you suggest that it wasn’t, however polite and diplomatic you try to be, with whatever scholars you wish to use to back up your argument, you have an irreconcilable difference, do you not?

Most historical scholars will say Jesus did die and the apostles came to believe he rose and somehow the tomb was empty. There were even grave robbery laws instituted by Romans shortly after and Jewish writings of Judas the gardener moving the body because 'he heard the apostles were going to try and steal it (from under the guarding soldiers noses?).

Conservative Christians like me see the Bible as breathed by God but using human agency of many authors writing it down and so it may have the styles of the writers but be infallible in the original as per the character fo God

Muslims see the Koran as more of a dictation process where the preexisting heavenly words were given to the author

( An interesting analogy is that Jesus as 'the word of God' is analogous to the Koran in those views since both are claimed preexistent and eternal in heaven prior to coming to earth. Jesus and the Koran seems to be a stronger analogy than the Bible and Koran in the respective faiths)

 

[Riders]

Most historical scholars will say Jesus did die and the apostles came to believe he rose and somehow the tomb was empty. There were even grave robbery laws instituted by Romans shortly after and Jewish writings of Judas the gardener moving the body because 'he heard the apostles were going to try and steal it (from under the guarding soldiers noses?).

Conservative Christians like me see the Bible as breathed by God but using human agency of many authors writing it down and so it may have the styles of the writers but be infallible in the original as per the character fo God

Muslims see the Koran as more of a dictation process where the preexisting heavenly words were given to the author

( An interesting analogy is that Jesus as 'the word of God' is analogous to the Koran in those views since both are claimed preexistent and eternal in heaven prior to coming to earth. Jesus and the Koran seems to be a stronger analogy than the Bible and Koran in the respective faiths)

No either that thing about Romans instilling grave robbing laws is a lie it has nothing to do with Jesus.

They have found the dried up foot of another messiah still nailed to a cross because they did not bury messiah's in Tombs back then.It was against the law

Only royalty was allowed to be hurried in a tomb.

 

[1213]

...
It's to have a union of thought and salah.

That's why the theology advises them to bow in the direction...

Ok, thank you. That is quite good answer. But I have to ask one thing. For that I could use that information later, I need some source to back up that. So, if you can, please give some source for that information?

 

[Deeje]

Timothy, Romans, Galatians, Colossians = Paul

I didn't know JW believe in Paul.

Paul was specially chosen as an apostle, ("one sent forth") though he was not one of the 12. He had an assignment as an "apostle to the nations". He is the only one of the apostles who was formally educated.
Paul's writings in no way contradict the OT, nor the teachings of Jesus. It's is people's misinterpretation of scripture that causes a lot of confusion, even a charge that the Bible contradicts itself.....it actually contradicts their misinterpretation. God's word does not contradict itself.....how could it?

This is in contradiction with the Old Testament to believe in the original sin.

"Original sin" is often misunderstood, especially by Christendom's churches.

God's law demanded equivalency in payment for any sin committed. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life".
When Adam disobeyed his God, he not only suffered the death penalty himself, but condemned his children to the same fate. (Romans 5:12) In order to fulfill God's law, a life had to be given for the life lost. Since it was sinless life that was lost, only sinless life could be offered in payment. Jesus was that sinless life.

How do you believe that Paul contradict this?

 

[Pastek]

God's law demanded equivalency in payment for any sin committed. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life".
When Adam disobeyed his God, he not only suffered the death penalty himself, but condemned his children to the same fate. (Romans 5:12) In order to fulfill God's law, a life had to be given for the life lost. Since it was sinless life that was lost, only sinless life could be offered in payment. Jesus was that sinless life.

How do you believe that Paul contradict this?

Because it was said :

18.20 Ezekiel - The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

So we don't share the guilt of Adam and Eve.

I don't remember everything as I read quite a long time ago the Bible, but I remember few things like :

4.1 - Levitic The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands—

And then it explains what to do.

Also I think that the jews have probably others way to ask forgiveness maybe just by prayers. I don't know but I'm not sure they still sacrifice animals each time they sin. In our times it's complicated.
And why you believe in the original sin if it wasn't teached by the other prophets before ?
This means there was already a way to ask for forgiveness and that what the people who lived before Jesus used to do.
Why believing more in Paul than the prophets ? That's what I don't understand.

 

[Deeje]

Because it was said :

18.20 Ezekiel - The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

So we don't share the guilt of Adam and Eve.

There are two kinds of sin mentioned in the Bible....1) the sin (imperfection, defects) inherited from Adam....and 2) the sins we commit as a wilfull and deliberate action, despite knowing that it is wrong.
What you mention is the second kind. No one can be held accountable for the deliberate sin of a parent, or child....but no one can dodge inherited sin. Only Jesus' sacrifice could pay to redeem humanity from slavery to sin and death, restoring God's original purpose for the human race....to "fill the earth and subdue it" as God intended at the beginning. They were to transform the whole earth into an Edenic paradise and enjoy everlasting life in peace and security under God's loving rulership. This will yet be realised. (Isaiah 55:11)

I don't remember everything as I read quite a long time ago the Bible, but I remember few things like :

4.1 - Levitic The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands—

And then it explains what to do.

Also I think that the jews have probably others way to ask forgiveness maybe just by prayers. I don't know but I'm not sure they still sacrifice animals each time they sin. In our times it's complicated.

Yes, under God's law given through Moses, God made arrangements to allow the sacrifice of animals to atone for sin. Blood represents life, so this arrangement was to stay in force until Messiah came to give his precious blood, once for all time.

And why you believe in the original sin if it wasn't teached by the other prophets before ?
This means there was already a way to ask for forgiveness and that what the people who lived before Jesus used to do.
Why believing more in Paul than the prophets ? That's what I don't understand.

As I understand it, original sin, was atoned for by Jesus. Animal sacrifices were temporary and had to be offered regularly for sins committed against the law of God. Once Jesus offered the ultimate sacrifice, there was no longer a need to offer animals. Their blood pointed forward to the one act of atonement that would remove the need for animals to be offered (as an apology for sin)....forever.

Paul, in no way contradicted anything in OT scripture, nor did he teach anything that was in opposition to Christ's teachings.

Perhaps you misunderstand because Christendom had messed up the Bible's message. I had to abandon Christendom to find the truth.....just as the Jews had messed up their worship in the first century, and some who had become "lost" were led out of that corrupted system, so in these last days, Jesus has again led his disciples out of a corrupted religious system.

That is what I believe.