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Featured Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 26, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    62.3%
  2. No

    11.3%
  3. I don't know

    11.3%
  4. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    15.1%
  1. joelr

    joelr Active Member

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    That's the opposite of what's true.
    All outside sources are considered later additions by the church or simply mentioning Christians who follow he gospels.

    The gospels are not historical and read exactly as myth and are all copied from of Mark.
    The Paul that is authentic mentions only scripture and revelation, no life of Jesus.
    Like historian Richard Carrier says the evidence "sucks".
     
  2. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    How do you deal with Jesus predicting he will die and raise himself? as he did in John 2?

    I see Genesis as largely historical


     
  3. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    By the time Jesus came there had already been a bunch of saviors to give his life, and also there was a Messiah movement at the time where saviors were already crucified.
     
  4. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Even 'the Jesus Seminar" liberals are certain Jesus died on the cross.
    Even extra biblical sources agree there was darkness over the whole world consistent with the claims the sun did not shine for hours while Jesus died

     
  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    true but only one with a 'spotless sinless savior' and only one rose form the dead
     
  6. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Well FYI I do believe he and many other Messiahs were crucified. But nor raised from the dead.
     
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  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Ritual Jewish immersion is not baptism for sin.. I have NEVER heard even an ignorant Christian claim that it was.
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

    No, Jesus did not die on the cross.
    Bahaullah's siding with the Pauline-Christianity exposes Bahaullah's "infallibility" and makes him a fallible human being.

    Regards
     
  9. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Ok could you explain this to me in simple terms I am not a B'ahai so I wouldn't know
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The problems with that argument are many.

    1/ It relies on a rigid interpretation of two verses in the Quran.

    2/ All four Gospels clearly outline that Jesus was crucified. The apostles (not just Paul) clearly believe He was crucified.

    3/ There is no good reason to believe He was crucified as crucifixion was common practice by the Romans.

    4/ Most historians (even atheists) agree He was crucified. The only ones that don't are those who deny He existed in the first place.
     
  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Infallibility of their prophet is a core Baha'i belief, Paar. Because a belief of such a nature is so subjective, there is no way to prove or disprove it. You cna choose to not believe it, of it you're a baha'i you pretty much have to believe it, 9or call yourself a liberal Baha'i). Non-Baha'i;s, if they've heard of the baha'i faith at all, don't believe it.

    I defend the right of anyone to believe anything they want, no matter how illogical it appears to me. It's just belief, not truth.
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "For what its worth, Baha'is believe Christ was crucified."

    It is wrong understanding of the Quran verses. Bahaullah was not a well-grounded in knowledge person of Quran, so he understood it wrongly.

    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I always also defend Bahaullah's followers in connection with their right to believe in whatever they want to believe but in relation to Quran, Bahaullah had a shallow knowledge of Quran, that is my point, please.

    Regards
     
  14. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Oh definitely. He had a much shallower knowledge of Hinduism. Having grown up in Persia, he had some understanding of Islam though. But I think because he declared himself infallible (incredibly smart) he may well have had a very difficult time learning from others. That's common with delusions of grandeur.
     
    #194 Vinayaka, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
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  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Here's what the Quran says:

    And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
    And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
    And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
    Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.


    Surah An-Nisa [4:155-158]

    These verses are taken literally by most Muslims. There's no need to insist on this approach other than centuries of unquestioned tradition.

    In the Gospel of Matthew 27:32-50 it is written:

    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
    And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
    They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
    And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
    And sitting down they watched him there;
    And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.
    Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
    And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
    And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
    Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
    He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
    He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
    The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
    Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
    And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
    The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


    This Gospel of Matthew along with Mark, Luke and John all give clear unambiguous accounts of a crucifixion unlike the two verses in the Quran that mention the crucifixion. Further Muslims reject the Gospels and therefore their own prophet Muhammad who affirmed the truth of the Gospels.
     
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  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    When I was first converted to Islam, I was told that the Yusuf Ali interpretation was the best. He was a man of Indian descent that lived in the UK, and highly respected. I would be interested to know if this translation is by him? Yes, there are two versions of the story, I'm told. I used to have the names of those who wrote them, but that has been years since.

    For me, the things that really tell me who I am to be are not dependent upon the Crucifiction. I think that no one can use the falsifying of the story to have an excuse for doing things that displease God, Allah SWT, or whoever you wish to call him.
     
  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Yusaf Ali’s translation of the Holy Quran from Arabic to English is indeed considered amongst the best. However, it is not the role of one who translates, to also interpret. That is for each one of us.
     
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  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    All four gospels say Jesus came back to life too, but Baha'is don't believe that. So why trust what the gospels say?
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    The crucifixion of Christ is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon. It is consistent with known history and why would the Christians make it up? Coming back to life 3 days later and then ascending through the stratosphere is anything but ordinary.
     
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  20. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Does it matter if Jesus came back to life if one loves God and is obedient? Frankly, in my life, those who believe he came back to life and believe the things he said and did have not proven it by their changed lives.
     
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