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Featured Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 26, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    64.6%
  2. No

    8.3%
  3. I don't know

    14.6%
  4. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    12.5%
  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Although a literal interpretation doesn't work for you and me, I'd say it does work for them. Like let's say the Baha'i interpretation of all the other religions is true, then the interpretation of the followers of all the other religions is off in varying degrees. But all these other religions, including Fundy Christianity, are working. The followers just see things different then you and I. Like the Young Earth belief of some Christians. They find "science" to back up their beliefs. I've heard it. And, it's not all that farfetched. And to them, the belief in a Earth that is billions of years old is what's farfetched.

    But I listened to the Fundy's. I understand why they take it so literal. It's because the foundation of their beliefs is the Bible. So how can they turn around and admit that some parts aren't the literal, honest to God truth. But do all Christians pluck their eyes out if their eyes offends them? Do all Christians pick up deadly serpents or drink poison and expect it not to hurt them? Do all Christians say unto a mountain be removed and cast into the sea? No, those things, oddly enough, they take as "symbolic" or not "literal". Yet, a talking serpent, a forbidden fruit, a world-wide flood... those things are literal and real?

    But, like I said, it's all part of what makes their religion work for them. If they start doubting any of it, it all falls apart. And, it eventually leads to Jesus and believing everything, literally, what the NT says about him. And they need to believe he was crucified, died, and was buried... but rose again. That makes him their Savior. The one they can trust to do everything, literally, that is promised in the NT.
     
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Jesus Crucified or Not?


    1. Why crucifixion?


    Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.

    Suggested readings and viewing

    25% of Christians do not believe in resurrection and Queen’s former chaplain calls them non-Christians

    BBC Documentary: Did Jesus Die On the Cross?

    The Most Popular Video in the Muslim Times: Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!

    The Best Collection to Introduce Islam to the Fellow Christians

    Suggested Reading for the best understanding of personal religion in the 21st century

    65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross

    Right, please?

    Regards
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Its interesting you have started with links that discredit the resurrection narrative and how 25% of Christians don't believe in the resurrection. Those numbers would be debatable, but you may be interested to know, Baha'is don't believe Jesus was literally resurrected from the dead. There is of course a huge difference when we are talking about either the resurrection or crucifixion. One is an extraordinary supernatural event, the other (the crucifixion) requires nothing miraculous at all.
     
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  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    One of the important learnings of being on the interfaith council is being open about differences. In regards the resurrection, Paar has provided an interesting link on post #222 that indicates 25% of Christians don't believe in the resurrection. If a Christian believes in the resurrection, I completely accept their right to their beliefs and acknowledge this core belief as part of their theology.
     
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  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    People have the right to their beliefs and life investments... but... some investments turn out better than others

    If Jesus died for sins and rose, then 'the check cleared' and forgiveness was provided and a way back to God opened
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I just don’t trust to people who basically worship a stone in the desert.
     
  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Jesus did not die on the Cross, so there is no question of any resurrection. It is as simple as that. Nothing extraordinary supernatural happened.

    Regards
     
  8. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Rather than hate each other, we could just allow Jesus (Isa PBUH) prove what is right because all Abrahamic systems basically practice the same thing about his return.

    Muslims do not worship a stone in the desert. They worship Allah SWT, which is simply the word for God in Arabic. Most Middle Eastern Christians that speak Arabic call God Allah SWT. The idea that we worship a stone is just more hate speech from the fundamentalist Christians that I disavowed.
     
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  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That's good that we agree Jesus wasn't resurrected. I've come across on Muslim on RF who thought He had been.

    The main difference betwen our worldviews comes down to whether or not Jesus was crucified. The account of Christ's crucifixion is clearly outlined in all four Gospels. All the apostles clearly though Christ was crucified too. So to establish that Christ wasn't that you need to prove the Gospels are false and corrupted along with the teachings of the apostles. Baha'is don't see the Gospels as corrupted and false, nor do we discredit Christ's apostles. We see Muhammad as being the Messenger of God and the Quran as being the authenticated respository of the Word of God. The Quran mentions the Gospel in twelve places in the Quran and there is no verses that explicitly state the Gospel of Jesus the Christians had in their possession at the time of Muhammad's Revelation was corrupted.
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    There are quite a few assumptions underlying what you say.

    1/ It is assumed that Christ really did rise from the dead.

    2/ Substitutionary atonement as recorded in the New Testament be taken literally.

    3/ It is assumed that Christianity is the only true religion and all the other religions are false.

    4/ Salvation is through Faith alone.

    All four assumptions have been the focus of considerable debate on RF. As you say, people have a right to their beliefs and I certainly respect your right to your beliefs.
     
  11. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I do respect people for trying to live up to their best understanding of truth but I do believe those 4 things.
     
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  12. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Yes. Jesus died on a cross (sorry Muslims).

    But no "this poll doesn't reflect my thinking." I do not believe Jesus died as atonement for our sins. I believe Jesus has existed since the time of God, and repeatedly appeared as heroes and deities (like Osiris and Mithra). John 1:2 What Jesus died for, is so that all of us should know that "God so loved the world." There's no magical ritual sacrifice here, but rather a showing that the real sacrifice God wants is his own flesh and blood. Because of Jesus, we know that our sins are forgiven.

    But sins were forgiven in the time of Noah, people just understood it as a righteousness model.
     
  13. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    The various hypocritical factions have completely driven me into a corner, because most of them think that it is ok to be hateful, perhaps even murderous to those who disagree with them. I'm willing to let the Messiah prove who he is and then take an accounting. And some accounting it will be.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Absolutely not! I believe it is RF policy not to know anything. I preface all my statements with it even if the statement is a tautology to make sure I don't get censured (again).

    I believe that is not correct. I make mistakes once in a while. I hardly ever make them about logic though.
     
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  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you have no evidence to back up your statement.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Isaiah has this to say about it:
    Isa. 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
    he has put him to grief;7
    when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
    he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
    the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    One has again used the words "I believe" to start a sentence, hence I have rated one's post as "funny", the first ever done by me.I take one’s this post in the same sense as I mentioned in my earlier post #216 .
    I don't mind, it is one's choice, so be happy, please.

    Regards
     
    #237 paarsurrey, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Was Jesus Crucified or Not?



    "6. Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:

    Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)

    And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)

    …. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)"


    65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross

    Jesus was a pious person so this entails that his prayers would have been/were accepted and he was saved a cursed death (in terms of Torah) on the Cross.
    Right, please?

    Regards



     
  19. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Then, why they bow to the rock?
     
  20. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Where did you get that idea? Are you so lazy that you listen to a Pastor rather than do your own research? Bow to a rock? Seriously?

    Muslims bow to Allah SWT and him only. Allah is the Arabic word for God, or I think or HaShem for Jews. Will you listen to more or am I wasting my time?
     
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