Was Islam spread by the sword?

[paarsurrey]

Sigh. You're closer than your previous post but you're still missing the point. I originally asked you since you believe dreaming is a valid way of experiencing your god, do you believe dreaming is still a valid way for experiencing deities of other religions? Or is dreaming only a valid way of experiencing deity when it fits your idea of what deity is?

Now don't get me wrong. I mentioned it has to be correctly interpreted. G-d has mentioned three modes/ways to have Converse with his messengers/prophets:
[42:52] And it is not for a man that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a veil or by sending a messenger to reveal by His command what He pleases. Surely, He is High, Wise.
[42:53] And thus have We revealed to thee the Word by Our command. Thou didst not know what the Book was, nor what the faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light, whereby We guide such of Our servants as We please. And truly, thou guidest mankind to the right path,
[42:54] The path of Allah, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Behold! to Allah do all things return.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=42&verse=51

And it is not for a man that Allah should speak to him except

1. by revelation or
2. from behind a veil* or
3. by sending a messenger to reveal

by His command what He pleases.

*by dream that has to be interprets correctly.
Joseph knew as to what was meant by the dream he saw, the same way his father Jacob knew, but brothers of Joseph did not know it.
Does it help?Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Never mind. For some reason you seem determined to not answer the question I asked in the beginning. You ignore that I'm asking about dreams as a method of interacting with the divine. Forget it. I've lost interest in what you think now.

@A Greased Scotsman, please

Please read post #3501 , if one likes to, and be much pleased to inform us as to in what of the three modes mentioned therein Ahura-Mazda had conversation with the prophet/messenger Zoroaster. I think one still believes in Zoroaster as one has mentioned in one's religion "Pagan - Greek polytheism; Zoroastrian philosophy".
I think these are inconsistent and way contradictory with one another. Am I right? Please
What is the wise opinion of other "pagan" members on the issue just mentioned? Please
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

@A Greased Scotsman, please

Please read post #3501 , if one likes to, and be much pleased to inform us as to in what of the three modes mentioned therein Ahura-Mazda had conversation with the prophet/messenger Zoroaster. I think one still believes in Zoroaster as one has mentioned in one's religion "Pagan - Greek polytheism; Zoroastrian philosophy".
I think these are inconsistent and way contradictory with one another. Am I right? Please
What is the wise opinion of other "pagan" members on the issue just mentioned? Please
Anybody, please

Regards

I will in another thread. Do I have your permission to quote the above post in the new thread? It would be an easy reference to what you are asking here. And also I do actually need your permission to quote that post in another thread.

 

[Latewish]

Hi everyone. Some people say that Islam was spread by the sword. Others say that it was not. The Koran says that there is to be no compulsion in religion so it would seem that Islam's sacred text would condone religious freedom. But was this really the case historically? Here is the reference from the Koran which I am referring to.

Can you make someone love you by the sword? Faith is like love, you can't force it. Muslims were forced to fight back, they did not start the fight or hold a sword while the pagans were torturing and killing them for 15 years and when ever they asked god permission to fight back they were ordered to wait and be patient, until these verses were revealed:

(39) To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-

(40) (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

(41) (They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

And this verse in the Quran is another prove that we fight only to defend:
(61) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

The problem is many Muslims today have misinterpreted the fighting verses. All these movements that kill and call to war in the name of Islam have gone astray and not just because of the killing, but because they became movements and sects when Islam is one.

 

[paarsurrey]

I will in another thread. Do I have your permission to quote the above post in the new thread? It would be an easy reference to what you are asking here. And also I do actually need your permission to quote that post in another thread.

You are pleased to do it, but why not in this thread? It has not be started by me and I welcome everybody to write here without any ill-will. May I also quote your posts here or in some-other thread, the same way, no compulsion however and whatsoever, please.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you make someone love you by the sword? Faith is like love, you can't force it. Muslims were forced to fight back, they did not start the fight or hold a sword while the pagans were torturing and killing them for 15 years and when ever they asked god permission to fight back they were ordered to wait and be patient, until these verses were revealed:

(39) To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-

(40) (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

(41) (They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

And this verse in the Quran is another prove that we fight only to defend:
(61) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

The problem is many Muslims today have misinterpreted the fighting verses. All these movements that kill and call to war in the name of Islam have gone astray and not just because of the killing, but because they became movements and sects when Islam is one.

Welcome here and the forum,please.
Regards

 

[Latewish]

Welcome here and the forum,please.
Regards

Thanks

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You are pleased to do it, but why not in this thread? It has not be started by me and I welcome everybody to write here without any ill-will. May I also quote your posts here or in some-other thread, the same way, no compulsion however and whatsoever, please.
Regards

I don't want to derail this one; and on this thread our discussion might get snowed under quite quickly. Look how many pages this thread has: 176. That's a lot of input. I don't see why you'd need to quote my posts elsewhere. I only want to quote this specific one once, in the OP if a new thread. To be fair, I don't need to in order to start a new thread; it would save time by letting people see your exact question without them having to go searching for it. If you don't want me to quote it that's fine. I can paraphrase instead.

I'll tag you in the new one.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You are pleased to do it, but why not in this thread? It has not be started by me and I welcome everybody to write here without any ill-will. May I also quote your posts here or in some-other thread, the same way, no compulsion however and whatsoever, please.
Regards

On second thoughts, it would probably be easier if you quoted your question here into the new thread. That would give you the chance to summarise or be more specific if you felt that was appropriate.

Does that sound good to you?

 

[paarsurrey]

On second thoughts, it would probably be easier if you quoted your question here into the new thread. That would give you the chance to summarise or be more specific if you felt that was appropriate.

Does that sound good to you?

The new thread should be in the religious debate forum and open for anybody. I have asked questions. I or others may ask any more questions. Please
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The new thread should be in the religious debate forum and open for anybody. I have asked questions. I or others may ask any more questions. Please
Regards

If that's what you prefer then I'll put it there. Bear in mind that our discussion might get snowed under by contributions from others and it may become harder to keep track of things.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑ #3490
There have been scientific inventions and discoveries because of dreams. It depends on the person who sees a dream and his experience with dreams.

A Greased Scotsman said: ↑ #3491
Really? Interesting. Do you know of any?

A Greased Scotsman said: ↑ #3489
Do you believe dreams are a valid & accurate way of experiencing gods if a person has a dream about a god other than your own?
Could you also answer the question as I worded it please? I was asking specifically about dreams as ways of encountering & relating to the divine. Do you think dreams are a valid way of experiencing gods other than your own?

paarsurrey wrote:

#3. Einstein Dreams About Electrocuting Cows, Creates Special Theory of Relativity

Albert Einstein is perhaps the only person whose name became a synonym for "smart." Solving the mysteries of the universe was more a hobby for him than a job. And if his brain power wasn't obnoxious enough already, many of his biographies recount that the theory of relativity came to him in a goddamn dream. When he was a teenager.
It's said that Einstein dreamed that he was walking through a farm when he came upon a bunch of cows huddled up against an electric fence.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20498_5-famous-things-you-wont-believe-were-invented-in-dreams.html

Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

A Greased Scotsman said: ↑ #3491
Really? Interesting. Do you know of any?

A Greased Scotsman said: ↑ #3489
Do you believe dreams are a valid & accurate way of experiencing gods if a person has a dream about a god other than your own?
Could you also answer the question as I worded it please? I was asking specifically about dreams as ways of encountering & relating to the divine. Do you think dreams are a valid way of experiencing gods other than your own?

paarsurrey wrote:

#3. Einstein Dreams About Electrocuting Cows, Creates Special Theory of Relativity

Albert Einstein is perhaps the only person whose name became a synonym for "smart." Solving the mysteries of the universe was more a hobby for him than a job. And if his brain power wasn't obnoxious enough already, many of his biographies recount that the theory of relativity came to him in a goddamn dream. When he was a teenager.
It's said that Einstein dreamed that he was walking through a farm when he came upon a bunch of cows huddled up against an electric fence.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20498_5-famous-things-you-wont-believe-were-invented-in-dreams.html

Regards

The subject of dreams relating to scientific discoveries is separate from the subject of dreams relating to gods. These are all very interesting, paarsurrey and I thank you for posting them but it seems they've become more of a distraction than anything else. You've focussed more on this than on the question I asked about dreams and gods.

 

[paarsurrey]

The subject of dreams relating to scientific discoveries is separate from the subject of dreams relating to gods. These are all very interesting, paarsurrey and I thank you for posting them but it seems they've become more of a distraction than anything else. You've focussed more on this than on the question I asked about dreams and gods.

Now don't get me wrong. I mentioned it has to be correctly interpreted. G-d has mentioned three modes/ways to have Converse with his messengers/prophets:
[42:52] And it is not for a man that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a veil or by sending a messenger to reveal by His command what He pleases. Surely, He is High, Wise.
[42:53] And thus have We revealed to thee the Word by Our command. Thou didst not know what the Book was, nor what the faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light, whereby We guide such of Our servants as We please. And truly, thou guidest mankind to the right path,
[42:54] The path of Allah, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Behold! to Allah do all things return.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=42&verse=51

And it is not for a man that Allah should speak to him except

1. by revelation or
2. from behind a veil* or
3. by sending a messenger to reveal

by His command what He pleases.

*by dream that has to be interprets correctly.
Joseph knew as to what was meant by the dream he saw, the same way his father Jacob knew, but brothers of Joseph did not know it.
Does it help?Please
Regards

Then please bear with me,please. The subject has been discussed in a chapter of Quran at a great length. One should read the whole chapter intently.
However, for your convenience please (and to share it with other members of the forum who are very dear to me) I will start it below, please:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 12: Yusuf ( in English it is Joseph and or James) یُوسُف

[12:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[12:2] Alif Lam Ra. These are verses of the clear Book.
12:3] We have revealed it — the Qur’an in Arabic — that you may understand.
[12:4] We narrate unto thee the most beautiful narration by revealing to thee this Qur’an, though thou wast, before this, of those not possessed of requisite knowledge.
[12:5] Remember the time when Joseph said to his father, ‘O my father, I saw in a dream eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them making obeisance to me.’
[12:6] He said, ‘O my darling son, relate not thy dream to thy brothers, lest they contrive a plot against thee; for Satan is to man an open enemy.
[12:7] ‘And thus shall it be as thou hast seen, thy Lord will choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of things and perfect His favour upon thee and upon the family of Jacob as He perfected it upon two of thy forefathers — Abraham and Isaac. Verily, thy Lord is All-Knowing, Wise.’
[12:8] Surely, in Joseph and his brethren there are Signs for the inquirers.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=12

One could see that Quran does it beautifully. God is Great!, indeed He is. Please
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Then please bear with me,please. The subject has been discussed in a chapter of Quran at a great length. One should read the whole chapter intently.
However, for your convenience please (and to share it with other members of the forum who are very dear to me) I will start it below, please:

Thanks for being concise. Good to see you view dreams as an acceptable medium for communicating with gods even if they aren't your own.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No, it is wrong. Islam spread peacefully.

Example

Spread of Islam in Dominica: [3]

Islam Dominican Republic

History of Islam in the DR

It may come as a surprise to many, but the history of Islam in the Dominican Republic began with the importation of African slaves during the DR’s colonial period. Spanish conquistadors, led by Christopher Columbus, landed on Hispaniola in 1492, and by 1502 had entered into slave trading. Historians have established that the presence of Islam was already substantial in West Africa during the 16th century, and this was where early colonizers bought most of their slaves. The Wolof Muslims from West Africa is believed to be among the first group of slaves transported to the New World. As the slave trade grew, colonizers imported a new group with its own customs and beliefs, such as Islam, to the New World. The presence of West African slaves with Muslim ties would quickly be seen as problematic. Resistance by the slaves was first recorded in 1503 when Nicolas de Ovando wrote to Spanish Queen Isabella requesting that she prohibit further shipments to the colony of people with connections to Islam. However, the demand for slaves was so strong that no one heeded the Spanish governors pleas’ to stop importing Muslims. Although these new imports to the Americas arrived with a rich and ancient culture, repression and forced conversions into Catholicism gradually diluted the original cultural, identity and religions of the remaining Muslim slave inhabitants on Hispaniola.
http://dr1.com/articles/islam.shtml

Dominica
Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1]:< 1,000
Muslim percentage (%) of total population 2010 Pew Report[1] :0.2
Percentage (%) of World Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1
Muslim Population Other Sources : -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Islam spread peacefully in Dominica.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The subject of dreams relating to scientific discoveries is separate from the subject of dreams relating to gods. These are all very interesting, paarsurrey and I thank you for posting them but it seems they've become more of a distraction than anything else. You've focused more on this than on the question I asked about dreams and gods.

Then please bear with me,please. The subject has been discussed in a chapter of Quran at a great length. One should read the whole chapter intently.
However, for your convenience please (and to share it with other members of the forum who are very dear to me) I will start it below, please:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 12: Yusuf ( in English it is Joseph and or James) [یُوسُف]
[2]

[12:9] When they said, ‘Verily, Joseph and his brother are dearer to our father than we are, although we are a strong party. Surely, our father is in manifest error.
[12:10] ‘Kill Joseph or cast him out to some distant land, so that your father’s favour may become exclusively yours and you can thereafter become a righteous people.’
[12:11] One of them said, ‘Kill not Joseph, but if you must do something, cast him into the bottom of a deep well; some of the travellers will pick him up.’
[12:12] They said, ‘O our father, why dost thou not trust us with respect to Joseph, when we are certainly his sincere well-wishers?
[12:13] ‘Send him with us tomorrow that he may enjoy himself and play, and we shall surely keep guard over him.’
[12:14] He said, ‘It grieves me that you should take him away, and I fear lest the wolf should devour him while you are heedless of him.’
[12:15] They said, ‘Surely, if the wolf devour him while we are a strong party, then we shall indeed be great losers.’
[12:16] So, when they took him away, and agreed to put him into the bottom of a deep well,they had their malicious design carried out; and We sent a revelation to him, saying, ‘Thou shalt surely one day tell them of this affair of theirs and they shall not know.’
[12:17] And they came to their father in the evening, weeping.
[12:18] They said, ‘O our father, we sent forth racing with one another, and left Joseph with our things, and the wolf devoured him, but thou wilt not believe us even if we speak the truth.’
[12:19] And they came with false blood on his shirt. He said, ‘Nay, but your souls have made agreat thing appear light in your eyes. So now comely patience is good for me. And it is Allahalone Whose help is to be sought against what you assert.’
[12:20] And there came a caravan of travellers and they sent their waterdrawer. And he let down his bucket into the well. ‘Oh, good news!’ said he, ‘Here is a youth!’ And they concealed him as a piece of merchandise, and Allah knew full well what they did.
www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=12&verse=11

One could see that Quran does it beautifully. God is Great!, indeed He is. Please
Regards

 

[Andraste]

Then please bear with me,please. The subject has been discussed in a chapter of Quran at a great length. One should read the whole chapter intently.
However, for your convenience please (and to share it with other members of the forum who are very dear to me) I will start it below, please:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 12: Yusuf ( in English it is Joseph and or James) [یُوسُف]
[2]

[12:9] When they said, ‘Verily, Joseph and his brother are dearer to our father than we are, although we are a strong party. Surely, our father is in manifest error.
[12:10] ‘Kill Joseph or cast him out to some distant land, so that your father’s favour may become exclusively yours and you can thereafter become a righteous people.’
[12:11] One of them said, ‘Kill not Joseph, but if you must do something, cast him into the bottom of a deep well; some of the travellers will pick him up.’
[12:12] They said, ‘O our father, why dost thou not trust us with respect to Joseph, when we are certainly his sincere well-wishers?
[12:13] ‘Send him with us tomorrow that he may enjoy himself and play, and we shall surely keep guard over him.’
[12:14] He said, ‘It grieves me that you should take him away, and I fear lest the wolf should devour him while you are heedless of him.’
[12:15] They said, ‘Surely, if the wolf devour him while we are a strong party, then we shall indeed be great losers.’
[12:16] So, when they took him away, and agreed to put him into the bottom of a deep well,they had their malicious design carried out; and We sent a revelation to him, saying, ‘Thou shalt surely one day tell them of this affair of theirs and they shall not know.’
[12:17] And they came to their father in the evening, weeping.
[12:18] They said, ‘O our father, we sent forth racing with one another, and left Joseph with our things, and the wolf devoured him, but thou wilt not believe us even if we speak the truth.’
[12:19] And they came with false blood on his shirt. He said, ‘Nay, but your souls have made agreat thing appear light in your eyes. So now comely patience is good for me. And it is Allahalone Whose help is to be sought against what you assert.’
[12:20] And there came a caravan of travellers and they sent their waterdrawer. And he let down his bucket into the well. ‘Oh, good news!’ said he, ‘Here is a youth!’ And they concealed him as a piece of merchandise, and Allah knew full well what they did.
www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=12&verse=11

One could see that Quran does it beautifully. God is Great!, indeed He is. Please
Regards

So this is yet another example of why the Quran is a fake book ..... Read
12:20 Copy
ﮧﮨﮩﮪﮫﮬﮭﮮﮯﮰ
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.
At the time of the supposed Joseph... There wasn't any Coins.... There wasn't any Dirhams.... Dirhams only came into existence 10 years after the Death of Muhammad' ..... It's like using Euros as currency in a story about 1940s Ireland..
Also the first coins weren't invented until 800 years after the supposed Death of Joseph...

 

[paarsurrey]

So this is yet another example of why the Quran is a fake book ..... Read
12:20 Copy
ﮧﮨﮩﮪﮫﮬﮭﮮﮯﮰ
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And they sold him for a reduced price - a few dirhams - and they were, concerning him, of those content with little.
At the time of the supposed Joseph... There wasn't any Coins.... There wasn't any Dirhams.... Dirhams only came into existence 10 years after the Death of Muhammad' ..... It's like using Euros as currency in a story about 1940s Ireland..
Also the first coins weren't invented until 800 years after the supposed Death of Joseph...

Your are such an intelligent person, I appreciate it. Aren't you? Please
And you must have done a lot of research on it. And you must be acquainted with the name currencies in vogue in all point of times since inception of humans on earth.
Please name the currency that was being used in that part of the the region where this transaction of buyinng and trading of Joseph as a slave took place. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Andraste]

Your are such an intelligent person, I appreciate it. Aren't you? Please
And you must have done a lot of research on it. And you must be acquainted with the name currencies in vogue in all point of times since inception of humans on earth.
Please name the currency that was being used in that part of the the region where this transaction of bung and trading of Joseph as a slave took place. Right? Please
Regards

That's easy ... There wasn't one ... Currency coin wasn't invented for another 800 years... People before that bartered....