Was Islam spread by the sword?

[gnostic]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only brought out the truth that was already given to Muhammad in the shape of Quran/Islam, later Muslims deviated from it as prophesied by Muhammad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad re------formed the existing creeds of Muslims, he did not propound any new creeds of Quran/Islam/Muhammad. It is so simple, should not be difficult to understand. Is it?

If that was true, if there are no new creed, then there would be no need for the like of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or his Ahmadiyya. There would be no need for reform.

In the past, you repeatedly stated in some of your posts that Ahmadiyya had "reformed" Islam. If there is a reform, then something in Islam has changed, something that Muhammad or the Qur'an doesn't teach.

With Muhammad and Islamic teachings, as I understand it, there will be no new "Messenger" and that he was the last of the prophet, and his is the only (true) way to Paradise.

Ahmad has put forward that now there is the alternative way, through him, by accepting him as the new messiah (and madhi). Ahmad has also advocated that Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna, and even Confucius, as prophets, something (with possibly the exception of Zoroaster) that Muhammad probably never heard of.

As I understand "creed", creed is statement of faith. Ahmad has his followers to see him as the new and promised messiah. That's not only a reform, but also change in creed.

Confucius wasn't so much as a religious person, but a philosopher. The Buddha (or Siddhartha Gautama) never really promoted one god. And both the Buddha and Krishna were said to be the reincarnation of Vishna. Muslims, other than Ahmadi Muslims, would not accept that human can be divine, hence the Sunni has branded Ahmadiyya Islam as heresy.

I am not saying that I am agreeing with the Sunni or other non-Ahamdi sects, but looking at the history of Islam from historical point-of-view, I can see why they don't view as Ahmadiyya sect as Islamic. At the same time, I'd usually preferred the underdog, because I see when a sect become too large, there is possibility for corruption, especially if they have too much power.

Reform in religion mean change in direction of the existing religion.

Is there "reform" to Islam or not?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Reform in religion mean change in direction of the existing religion.

Is there "reform" to Islam or not?

Islam can not be reformed
The best way is to refuse the Koran and the teachings of the Koran
Because if I said
I believe in the Koran but I'm in the jihad to Aaamn
This is not the real Islam
And if I say I am a Muslim, but I refuse polygamy, this is not true Islam
So better way to announce a new religion they Cjmdah
And reject the Koran
This is the best way

 

[LuisDantas]

A question to anyone who feels like explaining: how is it possible, or how does it even make sense, for a religion to be both thriving (as in, relevant, useful, constructive) and unreformable (as in, deprived of inner questioning and inner initiative)?

Word got me that Islam is supposed to have all necessary course correction provided by referring to the Quran, which is believed by (all?) Musims to be not only the direct word from God, but also blessed by an assurance from God that its text will be both correct, relevant and protected from mispreserving for all of time.

The consequence being that Muslims have, in essence, given up on their duties to keeping their doctrine healthy by third-partying that duty to the Quran - or, by what one is told to be the natural view of a Muslim, by God by way of the Quran.

I almost feel guilty explaining it that way because if feels so incredibly insulting towards Islam. But to the best of my understanding, that is indeed supposed to be correct understanding and practice of Islam.

But is that truly it? Are Muslims expected to trust the Quran over their own moral and religious discernment, or is that some sort of serious if widespread misunderstanding?

 

[Augustus]

A question to anyone who feels like explaining: how is it possible, or how does it even make sense, for a religion to be both thriving (as in, relevant, useful, constructive) and unreformable (as in, deprived of inner questioning and inner initiative)?

Islam has never been fixed and immutable (unreformable).

Even basic things which are now considered 'fact' according to orthodox Sunnism are he products of hundreds of years of jurisprudence. For example, the prohibition on alcohol was still being argued about well into the medieval period.

Aslo seeing as much of the Quran only makes sense in context of the sirah, and the sirah has always been open to debate, then you have a far more flexible tradition than many people give credit for.

 

[outhouse]

The consequence being that Muslims have, in essence, given up on their duties to keeping their doctrine healthy

EXACTLY!!!!

And the self proclaimed prophet is said to have warned all of them about this. And when they lost proper context, they lost the ability to learn, and for almost a thousand years, are no longer the worlds center for scientific study or knowledge. They went backwards when they threw moderation out the window now requiring fundamentalism and fanaticism.

 

[outhouse]

Islam has never been fixed and immutable (unreformable).

The two largest sects fight to the death over that very topic. And it is also an admittance that there is no control or moderation.

It should be fixed to allow control over perverted beliefs and faiths that want to retain primitive methods of following promoting violence and hatred of others beliefs.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?
No.
For example:
Spread of Islam in Central African Republic : [3]

Islam accounts for approximately 15% (750,000 people) of the population of the Central African Republic, making it the second most followed organized religion in the country afterChristianity (80%).[1] The vast majority of Muslims are Sunni of Maliki school of jurisprudence. Most Central African Muslims live in the north-east, near the border with predominantly Muslim Chad and Sudan.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Central_African_Republic

https://www.amnesty.org/en/
Erased identity: Muslims in the Central African Republic - In Pictures
31 July 2015, 00:01 UTC

A new Amnesty International report “Erased identity: Muslims in ethnically cleansed areas of the Central African Republic” reveals how Muslims who have returned to their homes in large parts of western Central African Republic following the 2014 killing spree and mass forced displacement are barred by armed anti-balaka militia from practicing or manifesting their religion in public. Some have been forcibly converted to Christianity on the threat of death.
https://www.amnesty.org/remote.axd/...pg?center=0.5,0.5&preset=proportional_639
Displaced children living in the Central Mosque in the PK5 Muslim enclave in Bangui, Central African Republic
https://www.amnesty.org/remote.axd/...pg?center=0.5,0.5&preset=proportional_639
Only rubble remains after the destruction of the central mosque in Bossembele, western Central African Republic

https://www.amnesty.org/remote.axd/...pg?center=0.5,0.5&preset=proportional_639
A mosque in Carnot, western CAR, one of the very few that has been reopened in the aftermath of the 2014 wave of ethnic cleansing, in which thousands of Muslims were killed and hundreds of mosques damaged and destroyed

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...-in-the-central-african-republic-in-pictures/


Country/Region: Central African Republic
Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1]:403,000
Muslim percentage (%) of total population 2010 Pew Report[1] :8.9
Percentage (%) of World Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1
Muslim percentage (%)Other sources : 15%[46][47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Central African Republic . Do you see any?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

We are talking about the origins of islam.

Could you address the OP , not make up your own rhetoric?

STAY on topic

Séléka CPSK-CPJP-UFDR is an alliance of rebel militia factions[1] that overthrew the Central African Republic (CAR) government on March 24, 2013.[2][3][4] Séléka leader Michel Djotodia became the nation's president from March 2013 until his resignation in January 2014.[5][6] Members of Séléka are almost entirely Muslim.[7][8][9][10]


Islam being spread by BLOOD and GUTS

“What’s worse is that the Seleka have recruited children as young as 13 to carry out some of this carnage.”

 

[outhouse]

Islamic genocide by the millions not even using the hundreds of thousands. Most westerners don't even have a clue how bad islamic violence really is but wish to open borders ignorantly.

Casualties: 3,000,000 - Nigeria, by Muslim [Hausa] dominated forces against the Ibo / Christians [1966-1970].[38][39]

Casualties: 3,500,000 - Sudan - from 1953 to 2005.[27] Including 2,500,000 between 1983-2005.[28][29]
Nature: Arab Islamic "supremacy" over "inferior" Southerners. [30][31] Jihad declared in 1983 by Numeiri,[32] and 1991 by al-Bashir.[33]

Casualties: 2,700,000 Chritians - (1915-1923) by Ottoman-Empire Muslim Turkey. 750,000 Assyrians, 500,000 Greeks and 1.5 million Armenians.[1]
Nature: 1.) Ethnic cleansing.[2] 2.) Islamic Jihad.[3]

Casualties: 3,000,000 - Bangladesh, 1971 (by Pakistan).[43]
Nature: Islamic Pakistanis' contempt for "impure" Bengalis.[44]

Casualties: Between 500,000 and 1,500,000 - Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988).[62]
Nature: 1.) Sunni-Shiite intolerance.[63] 2.) Arab racism/supremacy against Persians by Baathist Iraq.[64] 3.) Persian racism against Arabs.[65]

 

[McBell]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Been there, done that, was ignored, no need to further expose your dishonesty.

 

[gnostic]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Been there, done that, was ignored, no need to further expose your dishonesty.

Yeah, all too true.

He has been corrected so many times, but he tends to ignore or evade posts or replies that have corrected him, so I am not expecting to admit or recognise his mistake.

To say that "Please correct me if I am wrong" but ignore every posts that do correct him, not only showed his dishonesty, but also his cowardice.

 

[outhouse]

He has been corrected so many times, but he tends to ignore or evade posts or replies that have corrected him, so I am not expecting to admit or recognise his mistake.

Maybe he is muslim

Honestly though, I believe they are trained to avoid anything no matter how credible or factual that goes against the religion.

Basically refusal to communicate .

 

[gnostic]

Maybe he is muslim

Honestly though, I believe they are trained to avoid anything no matter how credible or factual that goes against the religion.

Basically refusal to communicate .

No, outhouse.

There used to be great Muslim mathematicians, scientists and inventors, willing to look beyond the Qur'an, to make new discoveries or improving old ones. But Muslims being great in these areas, have long since passed.

The problems are with some Muslims of today. They are nothing like Muslims of yesteryears, because they are trying to mix their ideology with science, and the outcome is pseudoscience and pseudo-history and avoidance of facts.

With paarsurrey, he can't seem to distinguish historical facts from propaganda. He is neck-deep in propaganda that he can't think for himself.

 

[McBell]

Maybe he is muslim

I do believe he is a Muslim.
However, that is not to say that Islam has made him that way.
I have met and talked with many a Muslim in person who would agree with me that he is only helping enforce the preconceived stereotype a lot of Islam phobic people have.

 

[outhouse]

There used to be great Muslim mathematicians, scientists and inventors, willing to look beyond the Qur'an, to make new discoveries or improving old ones. But Muslims being great in these areas, have long since passed.

Understood, I state this all the time

 

[outhouse]

I do believe he is a Muslim.

Depends who you ask, most do not call him a muslim.

My comment however was a weak attempt at humor.

However, that is not to say that Islam has made him that way.

I don't know on this one.

I have met and talked with many a Muslim in person who would agree with me that he is only helping enforce the preconceived stereotype a lot of Islam phobic people have.

I agree here whole hearted.

Some of his debating tactics aspects they are trained in though. He may be more over the top then most though.

 

[outhouse]

The problems are with some Muslims of today. They are nothing like Muslims of yesteryears, because they are trying to mix their ideology with science, and the outcome is pseudoscience and pseudo-history and .

That is what I was getting at.

I have yet to meet a muslim that would even answer questions in what I call honesty. Ive been here years now and getting honest questions answered is a complete nightmare due to this avoidance of facts you mentioned

 

[gnostic]

That is what I was getting at.

I have yet to meet a muslim that would even answer questions in what I call honesty. Ive been here years now and getting honest questions answered is a complete nightmare due to this avoidance of facts you mentioned

I don't mind if paarsurrey disagree me, because have different views are good for debate.

My problem is with his evasiveness. I will give him direct answer, if he ask direct question. Unfortunately, he doesn't. He would either ignoring the question altogether, or he would try to change the subject by asking questions unrelated to the topic.

One of the more recent topics that I had started - Only one prophet at the time??? - his first post was to redirect the question back at me instead of addressing the topic questions. He talked about everything except the thread's topic, and he ignored me each time, when I asked to address the OP questions.

He is giving me the worse possible images of Ahmadiyya Islam and Ahmadi Muslims. And I have encountered other Ahmadis here, but I don't have the same problem as I do with him, and what he is making me do, is disliking Ahmadis, even though no one else is like him, that's because of his attitude and his evasiveness here.

 

[outhouse]

My problem is with his evasiveness.

He has been on ignore for over a year.

It bothers me so I cannot deal with it all the time.

his first post was to redirect the question back at me instead of addressing the topic questions.

I have not met any muslim yet who answers question in a straight forward manner. It is a cultural trait I'm guessing unique to the religion in the middle east.

Its why I am, how I am, to them as a whole.

I know its a culturally learned trait, and I know its from birth on for all.

Your exactly the same as trying to discuss evolution with a YEC.

I wish I was wrong, but even my own family does this.

He is giving me the worse possible images of Ahmadiyya Islam and Ahmadi Muslims.

AGREED, I don't have a positive look at that sect because of his replies, even understanding my view is stereotypical.

 

[paarsurrey]

With Muhammad and Islamic teachings, as I understand it, there will be no new "Messenger" and that he was the last of the prophet, and his is the only (true) way to Paradise.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not a new Messenger, he never claimed to be a new Messenger of G-d. He is the same Messiah and Imam Mahdi- the End-Time-Reformer about whom Muhammad has prophesied categorically, having the same Recitation from G-d which was revealed to Muhammad. Kindly try to understand. Please
Regards