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Was God once a Man?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by JayHawes, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    Lu 23:46"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (his spirit)"

    Thus the bible does say that Jesus' spirit left his body. It was at this point that Jesus descended down into hell to preach to those in captivity (in Abraham's Bosom). Of course no flesh can go there.

    Sexual actvity is the result of sin. So what i mean is that these sinless and perfect bodies are free of any sin. God gave angels a glorfied body, a sinless body. When Jesus is asked a question relating to marriage in heaven he says:

    Mt 22:30 -For in the resurrection they (mankind) neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    We shall be as Angels. Angels in heaven do not marry, they do not have sex. When some of the angels did have sex (with women) they were cast out of heaven into tartarus (a place in Hell) (Jude 1:6).

    God holds angels to standards, no marriage, no sex. For you to say that God, in a body, had sex with Mary is therefore contradcitory saying that God allows himself to sin while not allowing us to sin (espcially when God and Mary were not married:no: ).


    Yes i do believe that glorified bodies are tangible, able to become flesh and at another time to be a spirit, and at another time to be in its natural state. I do not beleive however that these bodies are allowed to engage in sexual actvity. The result would be to fall from heaven, as did many of the angels.
     
  2. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Please, oh please don't tell me that I need to explain the basic chronology of the New Testament to you. I really hope that you don't think I'm stupid enough to take a verse describing Christ BEFORE his resurrection as proof of something that happened after his resurrection. I really hope you don't think I'm ignorant enough to fall for that.

    We're talking about the ASCENTION of Christ, after his resurrection. Not the death of Christ on the cross. I don't have my bible handy, but I think the story is in Acts 1.

    Let's leave angels out of this because it is a completely different debate. We're talking about Christ and the state of his body. I can't figure out how this even fits into the discussion we're having.

    I have no clue as to whether or not these bodies can engage in sexual activity and can't think of a single scripture either way. I would guess that they can (unless your God's body is missing it's gender parts). In any case, it has nothing to do with the discussion and I find it somehow blasphemous to even discuss.

    Finally, we've got to the point where we agree. You agree that God has a tangible body.

    Now, please share with me the scriptures that state that God morphs between "flesh" and "spirit." I think that LDS doctrine clears this all up by doing away with the silly "trinity" concept, but I'd be interested to see how you back this up with the Bible (unless, of course, this is simply a personal belief - which is ok by me).
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Deu 4:23
    (23) Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
    Deu 5:8
    (8) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
     
  4. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    1) I wasn't trying to trick you, i mrely misunderstood what you'all were saying, i thought you were referring to the cross, seeing that that was the subject i was speaking of. That Christ literally died on the cross.

    2) My other points go against the Mormon belief ( as told by their Prophets) that God is the Literal (by the body/sex) father of Jesus. They infer that God laid with Mary- therefore i stated that God does not allow angels to do this, so then, he would not do it either. scripture does say this, the whole problem of the Nephlim is becuase of angels who had sex, angels are not allowed this, God therefore would not either.

    3) It is more of a personal belief, mainly becuase of how angels have bodies of fire, and at other times they appear as men. God himself appears as a burning bush (through an angel), yet his true self remained in heaven.

    4) You cannot do away with the trinity. Genesis 1:1 states that God created the heavens and the earth, later we discoverd that Jesus is the agent who created the heavens and the earth (John 1:1-3, Col 1:12). Mormon teaching merely separates the trinity into 3 differeent gods, this is not much different than the trinity, besides the fact that:"there is one God; and there is none other but he:" Mark 12:32.
     
  5. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Phew! I'm glad we're on the same page now. Could you go back and respond to that post again?

    I wouldn't consider it a "Mormon belief" that Heavenly Father and Mary had sex. I'm sure that you can find some obscure quote from someone back in the day, but the church doesn't teach this.

    It does teach that God is the literal father of Christ. This isn't a Mormon belief. This is a Biblical belief.

    Mormons would say that Christ (Jehovah) appeared in this state because it was before he came to earth, received a body, and was resurrected. That's fine if it is simply a personal belief, though. You're entitled to that.

    Mormon belief isn't much different than the trinity, except they are separate beings and, therefore, do not need to morph between body and spirit in order to fulfill their mission.
     
  6. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    1) Which post?

    2) I'm sure i could find some obscure quote saying that God had sex with Mary, but i totally disagree with the idea that this is a biblical belief.

    "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father?...Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost...." (Journal of iscourses, Brigham Young, 1:51-52, April 9, 1852)

    "...for I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begot the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person" (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 1:237-238, July 24, 1853)

    You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers - you all know that don't you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father...Now my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you ask your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father, is literally the father of Jesus Christ. (Joseph F. Smith, Box Elder Stake Conference Dec 20, 1914 as quoted in Brigham City Box Elder News, 28 Jan, 1915, pp.1-2.)

    This is contradictory the the bible passage which says:

    Mt 1:18 -Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: when his mother Mary was going to be married to Joseph, before they came together the discovery was made that she was with child by the Holy Spirit.

    Mt 1:20 -But when he was giving thought to these things, an angel of the Lord came to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, have no fear of taking Mary as your wife; because that which is in her body is of the Holy Spirit.

    Lu 1:35 -And the angel in answer said to her, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will come to rest on you, and so that which will come to birth will be named holy, Son of God.

    Jesus was concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not the literal Presene of God in body form having sex with Mary. This idea is completey a figment of imagination combined into doctrines. I have no problem agreeing that God can have a body, but God has never set foot on this earth in this true body. Jesus Christ, is the bodily form of God (col 2:9), concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    As i've seen over and over again many of you Mormons disagree to some point with your Prophets, or either ignore their teachings. Maybe You should think about whether they are Prophets are not, if they are their words should be from God, they should be true, and they shouldn't disagree with the Bible.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Nobody said that the idea that God had sex with Mary is a biblical belief. On the other hand, the idea that God is literally the Father of Jesus Christ is about as biblical as you could possibly get.

    Let me ask you two very simple questions:

    Do you believe that Mary was a virgin?
    Do you believe that Mary was Jesus' literal mother?

    I'm guessing that you're going to answer "yes" to both questions. If I'm right, I have one more question for you: Why is it that you don't believe a woman would have had to have sex in order to be Christ's literal mother, but you imply that God would have had to have sex in order to be His literal Father?
     
  8. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    You are clouding things with your words. Yes i do beleive Mary was a Virgin and that she was Jesus' literal mother. Then for you to say that God was then Jesus' literal father is to imply something separate from Scripture.

    1) God had sex with Mary

    Is all i gather from this notion of God being Jesus' literal body father. (instead of the Holy Spirit, which Scripture says casued Mary to be with Child).
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    For crying out loud, stop it with the accusations already. You tell me in plain English how Mary could be Jesus' literal mother without the sex act being involved but God could not be His literal Father without the sex act being involved.

    So now the Holy Ghost is Jesus' Father? Go back and read your scriptures again. It never says that. It says, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee." Are you saying that the Holy Ghost is the same being as He who was described as being "the Highest"? The Holy Ghost clearly was present at Christ's conception -- however it took place -- but the scriptures clearly state that God was Christ's Father. Nowhere do they say that the Holy Ghost was.
     
  10. fascist_crusader

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    We believe that the Holy Spirit is God, so that still means God is his father. Myself I believe that the Holy Spirit created a fertile egg inside of Mary's womb, and that Christ went into it.
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I realize that. I, too, believe that the Holy Spirit is God. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is God the Father. I believe that God the Father is God the Father, and there is certainly nothing unscriptural about that.

    You are entitled to that belief. I don't claim to know how Mary became pregnant. All I know for sure is what the Bible says, and that's that the power of the Holy Ghost came upon her and that the power of the Highest overshadowed her. As to the specifics of what this statement implies, your guess is as good as mine. But that doesn't change the fact that it's merely a guess.
     
  12. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    What you said is so true, its sad that your Church contradicts you and KJV scripture:

    "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father?...Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost...." (Journal of iscourses, Brigham Young, 1:51-52, April 9, 1852)
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Where do the scriptures say that Christ was "begotten by the Holy Ghost"? Nowhere.
     
  14. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    I'll tell you how, by the power of the Holy Spirit. God the Father is nowhere meantioned to have come down and had sex with Mary. Also understand that the BIble never says that the father is Jesus' Literal father. That is LDS termonology. But Jesus was born of a woman and only of a woman, becuase sin is passed through the man, and Jesus was to do no sin.

    Ge 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; (A seed of a woman) it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    This is prophecy concerning Jesus. It says a seed of a woman, it never mentions man, and it never mentions ANY literal father. The Father in Heaven is just that, his Father, no implications must be added to make God more human. God is not man that he has to do thigns by our standard. You just dont understand the nature of God, he does not need to become human to do the supernatural. If he spli the red sea, would you also say that he literally came down from heaven, and stood there and split it? When Moses turned his rods into snakes, would you also say God literally came down a turned them into snakes or was he still in heaven? When God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, did he literally appear? No, he appeared through an angel as the burning bush, God was still in heaven. Miracles, as was the birth of Jesus, does not require God's literal presense. HIs power is far reacing enough to do what's needed. And i'm sure, since God is able to create man from dust, that he is able to impregnante Mary also. Without the need of physically having sex with Mary...which is not biblical.


    Your confusion runs deep. The Holy Spirit is the power by which Jesus was formed. But what does scripture say?

    Mt 1:18... she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
    Mt 1:20 ...for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    Lu 1:35" ...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee..."
    The greek word u&yistoß Hupsistos (hoop'-sis-tos)(highest)
    is describing the power that shall come over her. The Highest is God, but the verse does not say the the highest shall overshadow her, it says the power of the highest. This power is the Holy Ghost, as the verse clearly says. And it is this power which causes Mary to concieve Jesus.

    You seem to be assuming that Becuase God is Christ's father that there must be some physical implication of that title. Study shows that Jesus Christ was the first to ever refer to God as being his father. This was new to many Jews. And since you dismiss the trinity you cannot understand the mystery of Christ. Jesus functions as the Word of God. The Father, is the Judge, the commander. The Holy Spirit, is the power of God in this world. Being the Word of God, Jesus must first recieve a commandment, and he must carry it out. This is the basic fuction of a father and son relationship (in the jewish time). Fathers have intructions and the son was to carry them out. Jesus, being the word (what is seen of God) simply was doing what God, the judge told him to do. This therefore made God, is Father...seeing that Christ came to make us God's sons, it was to allow us to attain salvation to our salvation, not by keeping his commandments (which we cannot do) but by accpeting the blood of Jesus, and loving him, and producing good fruit, as the spirit gives evidence.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD HAD SEX WITH MARY IN ORDER FOR HER TO CONCEIVE JESUS CHRIST. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY IT? IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! STOP TRYING TO TELL US WHAT WE BELIEVE -- NOW!!!
     
  16. JayHawes

    JayHawes Active Member

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    I'm sure yous stopped reading my post at the point and wrote this....It'll be wise to read the rest of it.

    But seeing that You'all teach that Mary is LITERALLY the mother of Jesus. And y'all stress it so much that the Father is also Literally the father of Jesus. Just explain then what you mean by literally?
     
  17. lizskid

    lizskid BANNED

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    Pardon me JayHawkes, but literally doesn't show up once in the Brigham Young quote you supplied. So, unless you are determined to misinterpret their theology. please do not tell the Mormons what they beleive, they know what they believe, and it isn't was you tell them.

    Also, did you know that theologically, the KJV is the leat reliable English translation due to the interference and agenda of King James? It isn't God's word or God's word through man, it is King James' word. You need to dig deeper in your Bible studies and look wider in your translations, if you would like, I could suggest several good study Bibles that would also educate you in the historical perspective and various situations behind the words chosen.
     
  18. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Instead of you interpreting our theology, let us tell you -- it tends to work out better for both parties.
     
  19. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Yes and that was Joseph Smith's address at the April 1844 LDS church conference, just before he died..

    That is considered doctrine, as far as church standards go...

    Anything given in an LDS church conference is considered church doctrine, by today's standards, if given by the power of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, which I know it was..

    The King Follet sermon was nicknamed that because it was given just after the funeral of King Follet, who was not a King, that was just his first name...

    The sermon had nothing to do with King Follet, his name just got tagged to that address, which was given at the April 1844 LDS official chruch congerence, a few days after King Follet's funeral..

    It should be properly referred to as the 1844 LDS conference address given by Joseph Smith...

    His last official address to the LDS church, before he was killed with his brother Hyrum.

    Many LDS posters here will say this is not LDS church doctrine, but according to LDS standards today, anything given in an LDS church conference setting is considered doctrine....
     
  20. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Whatever...
     
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