Was God once a Man?

[JayHawes]

Latter Day Saints, or Mormons teach that God was once a man. I was wondering from what scripture does this teaching come?

 

[doppelganger]

I know it's in Joseph Smith's King Follett sermon. It's wonderful. I only recently discovered it myself.

 

[Katzpur]

I know it's in Joseph Smith's King Follett sermon. It's wonderful. I only recently discovered it myself.

Someone who is not LDS finds the King Follett Discourse "wonderful"? I'm speechless (rather unusual for me).

 

[jonny]

Don't all Christians believe in one way or another that God manifested himself as a man. I think his name was Jesus Christ or something.

Seriously though, it isn't LDS doctrine. It is a 'theory' at best that people have concluded from the doctrine of deification. It's fun to discuss, but one of those things that we'll have to wait until the next life to find out.

 

[jonny]

I know it's in Joseph Smith's King Follett sermon. It's wonderful. I only recently discovered it myself.

I love that sermon! It's really got some facinating ideas with it. That being said, there is probably a reason why it was never cannonized and included in the Doctrine and Covenents.

 

[Katzpur]

Latter Day Saints, or Mormons teach that God was once a man. I was wondering from what scripture does this teaching come?

Joseph Smith taught, "Joseph Smith, incidentally, once preached a funeral sermon in which he taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Another LDS prophet, Lorenzo Snow, whose well-known couplet ("As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.") is often cited by non-Mormons and Mormons alike when discussing this clearly controverisal topic.

Let's look at the second half of President Snow's couplet: As God is, man may become. This is doctrine. In fact, it's a doctrine with a name: “Eternal Progression.”

The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy. But, let's start by changing “Gods” to “gods.” That lower-case “g” makes a world of difference in the meaning of the word. Next, before we really get started, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 speak of the promises God has in store for the most faithful of His children. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” Another of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, it is entirely logical to assume that He has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity.

Now, let's move on to the first half of President Snow's couplet ("As man is, God once was..."), which more directly ties to your question. This statement, which (due to lack of actualy scriptural support) is not doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints, is merely a logical extention of the second half. If we can progress eternally, it would make logical sense that God "became" God over a period of time. Most Christians would insist that this is a direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches. The Bible, however, is only a record of those things which took place after "the beginning." "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth..." Anyone who believes that God existed before He created the heaven and the earth will have a hard time explaining what He was doing before the creation of our universe took place. The Bible quite simply does not address the topic of what was doing before "the beginning," before the clock started ticking, so to speak. Latter-day Saints believe something about what God may have been doing in the trillions of years before He created our universe. It does not contradict anything the Bible has to say about God. It couldn't; it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention.

 

[Aqualung]

Seriously though, it isn't LDS doctrine. It is a 'theory' at best that people have concluded from the doctrine of deification. It's fun to discuss, but one of those things that we'll have to wait until the next life to find out.

If two prophets have taught it, how is it not doctrine, or how is it something that we will have to wait until the next life to find out?

 

[Katzpur]

If two prophets have taught it, how is it not doctrine, or how is it something that we will have to wait until the next life to find out?

According to B.H. Roberts, a General Authority some years back: "The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly addcepted and endorsed by the Church in General Conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appear for our doctrine."

And President Harold B. Lee taught, "All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures.... We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures... We call these the Standard Works, you may well assume that is speculation. It is man's own personal opinion..."

I guess, if you really wanted to get argumentative (I can't imagine that you would ) you could say that this begs the question, since neither B.H. Roberts' nor Harold B. Lee's statements have themselves never been canonized.

 

[doppelganger]

Someone who is not LDS finds the King Follett Discourse "wonderful"? I'm speechless (rather unusual for me).

I found at least four fascinating ideas in that sermon. I unpacked it a bit in the "Trinity-Fact or Fiction" thread and have been planning a longer post on it when I get the chance.

What other controversial sermons or writings of Joseph Smith are there?

 

[Willamena]

Joseph Smith taught, "Joseph Smith, incidentally, once preached a funeral sermon in which he taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

Ooh! The Zodiac.

 

[Katzpur]

I found at least four fascinating ideas in that sermon. I unpacked it a bit in the "Trinity-Fact or Fiction" thread and have been planning a longer post on it when I get the chance.

I'll have to check it out. I'm curious to see where your thoughts led you.

What other controversial sermons or writings of Joseph Smith are there?

Are you kidding? His whole life was a controversy.

 

[Katzpur]

Ooh! The Zodiac.

Uh... if you say so, but you're going to have to help me out here, cause I'm not getting it.

 

[Aqualung]

According to B.H. Roberts, a General Authority some years back: "The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone.

That's interesting. So it has more to do with others will think than what comprises the whole truth.

 

[Katzpur]

That's interesting. So it has more to do with others will think than what comprises the whole truth.

I don't think that's the point at all. How many of our unique doctrines are rejected by the world? Dozens of them, and yet we don't deny that they are, in fact, doctrines -- that we believe them, that we teach them, that God has revealed them. The idea that God was once a man may very well be true. The fact that it has not been canonized in no way implies that it's not to be believed. There is a huge difference between saying that something is not doctrinally binding and saying that it's false.

 

[JayHawes]

Joseph Smith taught, "Joseph Smith, incidentally, once preached a funeral sermon in which he taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Another LDS prophet, Lorenzo Snow, whose well-known couplet ("As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.") is often cited by non-Mormons and Mormons alike when discussing this clearly controverisal topic.

Let's look at the second half of President Snow's couplet: As God is, man may become. This is doctrine. In fact, it's a doctrine with a name: “Eternal Progression.”

The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy. But, let's start by changing “Gods” to “gods.” That lower-case “g” makes a world of difference in the meaning of the word. Next, before we really get started, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.

(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 speak of the promises God has in store for the most faithful of His children. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” Another of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, it is entirely logical to assume that He has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity.

Now, let's move on to the first half of President Snow's couplet ("As man is, God once was..."), which more directly ties to your question. This statement, which (due to lack of actualy scriptural support) is not doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints, is merely a logical extention of the second half. If we can progress eternally, it would make logical sense that God "became" God over a period of time. Most Christians would insist that this is a direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches. The Bible, however, is only a record of those things which took place after "the beginning." "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth..." Anyone who believes that God existed before He created the heaven and the earth will have a hard time explaining what He was doing before the creation of our universe took place. The Bible quite simply does not address the topic of what was doing before "the beginning," before the clock started ticking, so to speak. Latter-day Saints believe something about what God may have been doing in the trillions of years before He created our universe. It does not contradict anything the Bible has to say about God. It couldn't; it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention.

The Verses you mentioned do not in anyway hint that we may take part in the diety of Christ....and my point is this as you have said :"it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention. " Yes. the bible does not mention. But your prophets do. If this doctrine in mormonism is true, why didn't God relate them to any OT prophet? Or for that matter to ANY apostle Jesus had? Or why didn't Jesus himself say that we would be exalted to God-hood? It seems the prophets of mormonism came out of nowhere and made up a doctrine about God that was never held before by anyone who beleived in him, mainly becuase "the Bible does not even mention [it]" as you say. They add to scripture and create a totally different picture of God apart from Canon. They lay a whole new foundation to the Gospel of Jesus even changing aspects of his birth and his personage. Paul told us that we are to build onto the foundation already laid. For no one can lay any other foundation...but some go and lay another anyway...even creating a whole new Gospel. (1 Corinthians 3:11). Example being that; The Father is a God, The son is a god, and that the Holy Ghost is a god. In direct contradiction of these:

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

1ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

It seems that some would rather believe whom they call a prophet and reject or totally ignore certain scripture, than to see truth. Hence since the words of certain prophets are not founded on anything biblical, our discussions are therefore void unless those prophets are proven true or false, Whom the majority of Christians do not value or look on as Prophets i mind you.

 

[Katzpur]

The Verses you mentioned do not in anyway hint that we may take part in the diety of Christ

I disagree. I believe they most certainly do.

....and my point is this as you have said :"it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention. " Yes. the bible does not mention.

Sorry, your statement makes no sense. Could you tell me how it is impossible to contradict something the Bible makes no mention of. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at. The Bible doesn't say that the Earth revolves around the sun. Does this mean that, because we know it does, we believe something that contradicts what the Bible says?

But your prophets do. If this doctrine in mormonism is true, why didn't God relate them to any OT prophet? Or for that matter to ANY apostle Jesus had? Or why didn't Jesus himself say that we would be exalted to God-hood?

I believe He did, and I mentioned four scriptures that I believe support this doctrine. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what you believe each of them to be saying. You might also want to address why you find it so offensive to think that God could make us into anything He wants. Or do you think that with God, some things really are impossible?

It seems the prophets of mormonism came out of nowhere and made up a doctrine about God that was never held before by anyone who beleived in him, mainly becuase "the Bible does not even mention [it]" as you say.

Clearly, you believe that everything God has ever told any of His prophets somehow found its way into the Bible. I don't believe that to be the case, and the Bible itself does not claim to be a complete record of God's dealings with mankind. As a matter of fact, it does say that if everything Jesus said or did had been written down, all of the books in the world could not contain it.

They add to scripture and create a totally different picture of God apart from Canon. They lay a whole new foundation to the Gospel of Jesus even changing aspects of his birth and his personage.

God added to scripture, Jay. Who are you to say otherwise? By the way, I think I know what you're getting at when you say that we have "changed aspects of Jesus' birth." If I'm right in what I'm thinking, you'd better watch your step. You don't know what you're talking about.

Paul told us that we are to build onto the foundation already laid. For no one can lay any other foundation...but some go and lay another anyway...even creating a whole new Gospel. (1 Corinthians 3:11).

Yes, and Paul also told us that the foundation of Prophets and Apostles that Christ built His Church on should remain in place until we all came into a unity of the faith. He said that if it didn't, we'd be "as children, cast about by every wind of doctrine." He was right. In case you hadn't noticed, there are thousands of different flavors of Christianity today, no two teachings exactly the same doctrines. How many of them are led by prophets and apostles?

Example being that; The Father is a God, The son is a god, and that the Holy Ghost is a god.

Well, I'll be darned. That's exactly what the Athanasian Creed says:
"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God..."

In direct contradiction of these:[/quote]

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

1ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Again, you lost me. I believe every word of what those scriptures have to say. I see no contradiction, direct or otherwise. If you would find it useful, I'd be happy to quote from the Book of Mormon. I see no point in doing so, however, unless you were interested in actually understanding what we believe.

It seems that some would rather believe whom they call a prophet and reject or totally ignore certain scripture, than to see truth. Hence since the words of certain prophets are not founded on anything biblical, our discussion therefore are void unless those prophets are proven true or false.

If you want to start a new thread to try to discredit the prophets of my Church, please be my guest. Or are you determined to derail this one? It's your thread, so I guess it's your call.

Whom the majority of Christians do not value or look on as Prophets i mind you.

Proving what? The majority of the people in the world are not even Christians. Since when is truth something decided by a majority vote?

 

[Katzpur]

Jay, I would enjoy hearing your comments on something the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, stated In his book, Mere Christianity:


“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Do you hold him in the same negative light you hold the Latter-day Saints? His explanation of this doctrine pretty much mirrors ours.

 

[JayHawes]

I disagree. I believe they most certainly do.

Sorry, your statement makes no sense. Could you tell me how it is impossible to contradict something the Bible makes no mention of. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at. The Bible doesn't say that the Earth revolves around the sun. Does this mean that, because we know it does, we believe something that contradicts what the Bible says?

I believe He did, and I mentioned four scriptures that I believe support this doctrine. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what you believe each of them to be saying. You might also want to address why you find it so offensive to think that God could make us into anything He wants. Or do you think that with God, some things really are impossible?

Clearly, you believe that everything God has ever told any of His prophets somehow found its way into the Bible. I don't believe that to be the case, and the Bible itself does not claim to be a complete record of God's dealings with mankind. As a matter of fact, it does say that if everything Jesus said or did had been written down, all of the books in the world could not contain it.

God added to scripture, Jay. Who are you to tell Him He has nothing more to say? By the way, I think I know what you're getting at when you say that we have "changed aspects of Jesus' birth." If I'm right in what I'm thinking, you'd better watch your step. You don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, and Paul also told us that the foundation of Prophets and Apostles that Christ built His Church on should remain in place until we all came into a unity of the faith. He said that if it didn't, we'd be "as children, cast about by every wind of doctrine." He was right. In case you hadn't noticed, there are thousands of different flavors of Christianity today, no two teachings exactly the same doctrines. How many of them are led by prophets and apostles?

Again, you lost me. I believe every word of what those scriptures have to say. I see no contradiction, direct or otherwise.

If you want to start a new thread to try to discredit the prophets of my Church, please be my guest. Or are you determined to derail this one? It's your thread, so I guess it's your call.

Proving what? The majority of the people in the world are not even Christians. Since when is truth something decided by a majority vote?

You seem to have forgotten that that was your statement.\

"it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention. "
My point was that you admitted that the bible cannot contradict something it doesn't mention...my point is that it doesn't mention it....It's manmade, not from scripture.

I believe He did, and I mentioned four scriptures that I believe support this doctrine. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what you believe each of them to be saying. You might also want to address why you find it so offensive to think that God could make us into anything He wants. Or do you think that with God, some things really are impossible?

I dont know what verses you are speaking of....Can God makes us anything he wants us to be? Yes. BUt God can also make us Llamas id he wanted, or anything eles...but what will we be? Perfected beings. Not gods, not one Prophet or Apostle, not even Jesus mentions exaltation to god-hood. Scripture is void of that doctrine, any man could come and tell you something, and just becuase God is able doesn't mean he will. The doctrine was made up in the 19th Century, why should anyone consider it?


What I mean when I mention changed aspects of Jesus' birth is that the Book of Mormon says Jesus will be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). The Bible cleary says Jesus was born in Bethlahem (Matthew 2:1, Luke 2: 4-6). This clear contradition is not good when you are saying the book of Mormon is a companion to the BIble. If it holds one lie, how many more lies does it hold?

No i dont beleive everything God had to say made it to scripture, but i also beleive that : "many false prophets will arise, and shall lead many astray" Matthew 24:11.


You say you believe those scriptures, yet Mormonism holds to the doctrine that The father is a God, that Jesus is a God, and that The Holy Ghost is a God, and that we may become a God, when the Bible says:

1ti 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

I simply want to challenge you to actually look at scripture- not to say you accept it and then totally contradict it.

 

[JayHawes]

Jay, I would enjoy hearing your comments on something the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, stated In his book, Mere Christianity:


“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Do you hold him in the same negative light you hold the Latter-day Saints? His explanation of this doctrine pretty much mirrors ours.

Many Christian like Creflo Dollar of New York hold to the doctrine that we are gods. They draw this from Psalm 82. I cover this Chapter in my Book concerning the teaching that Christians are gods. They quote verse 6 which reads: "I have said ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high." Of course they ignore everything eles without even studying the words of the chapters. The word God in Verse 1 comes from the hebrew Elohim, the word gods in verse 1 and 6 also come from the word Elohim. What is this word? This word as a title of God's judgement. It is the title he is given when he makes the judgement that his creation was good (Genesis 1). This same title is given to Moses in Exodus 7:1. Moses was made a god unto Pharoah. IN the meaning of the word Moses became the judge over Pharoah, and sent forth the plagues deserved. God also set up judges over Israel, whom he gave the title Elohim, becasue they would judge for him (Exodus 21:6). Is verse 6 of Psalm 82 speaking of Christians, no, Its speaking of the Jewish religious Judges of that day. When we are ignorant of this we get false doctrine.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't think that's the point at all.

That's exactly what he said! I don't think it's a bad thing. Milk before meat, after all. The israelites couldn't handle a higher law, so they were handed a lower law. This world can't handle the highest law, so a lower law (ie, what is ofificially doctrine) will have to suffice. Milk before meat, and we are, after all, trying to convert the world.