Was God once a Man?

[doppelganger]

GOd could not have been a man exalted to god-hood, if he was the same God who created the Heavens and the earth.

You didn't respond to my post. "Heavens and the earth" is a creature of language. Creatures of language are produced by humans. So is "sin." You control your own guilt and redemption if you want to.

 

[JayHawes]

"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, "They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone." The torment of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. So is the torment of man." - Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon.

Necessarily, so too is a man the source of his own grace and forgiveness.

You merely invent your own scripture. You draw nothing brom biblical source. God is the source of grace and forgiveness, if it was left up to man, he would forgive no man, and he certainly wouldn't give anyone what they didn't deserve.

 

[doppelganger]

You merely invent your own scripture.

You merely adopt someone else's invented scripture.

You draw nothing brom biblical source.

Sure I do.

God is the source of grace and forgiveness, if it was left up to man, he would forgive no man, and he certainly wouldn't give anyone what they didn't deserve.

You're projecting.

 

[JayHawes]

You didn't respond to my post. "Heavens and the earth" is a creature of language. Creature of language are created by humans. So is "sin." You control your own guilt and redemption if you want to.

You're not understanding my post. The heavens and the earth actually exist, we didn't create them, and its not a matter of language. God created them. If God had to be man on a planet before he became God it makes no sense. Also you can control your own guilt, but not your redemption becuase:
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

His grace, not yours. You may or may not condemn yourself for doing wrong, but that is becuase the holy spirit is not in you to convict you of your sin. Man will usually ignore it.

 

[Bishka]

Some mormon teachings state that God was once man, and that he was exalted to god-hood....

Have we not been over this? :areyoucra No matter how many times you phrase it, re-word or change it, the answer that we give you will be the same.

 

[doppelganger]

The heavens and the earth actually exist, we didn't create them, and its not a matter of language. God created them.

No. Defining something as "heavens and earth" is a product of language. Those are words. Seriously, they are. Even Genesis doesn't claim that "God" created the heavens and the earth ex nihilo. God "shaped, pruned or formed" it out of formlessness. That's a job exclusively for language and words. This is how the universe was created through the Divine Logos.

Also you can control your own guilt, but not your redemption becuase:
Eph 1:7In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Au contraire. First, I don't recognize scripture as authority, so quoting it to me as though I do is rather pointless. Second, I only lack "redemption" because I think I do. If I am not under the Law, then I am not condemned and need no redemption.

That's my grace. I can imagine that I had to have some authority to give it to me, but it has its power solely and exclusively by the operations it performs within my mind on my identity and perspective.

 

[JayHawes]

No. Defining something as "heavens and earth" is a product of language. Those are words. Seriously, they are. Even Genesis doesn't claim that "God" created the heavens and the earth ex nihilo. God "shaped, pruned or formed" it out of formlessness. That's a job exclusively for language and words. This is how the universe was created through the Divine Logos.



Au contraire. First, I don't recognize scripture as authority, so quoting it to me as though I do is rather pointless. Second, I only lack "redemption" because I think I do. If I am not under the Law, then I am not condemned and need no redemption.

That's my grace. I can imagine that I had to have some authority to give it to me, but it has its power solely and exclusively by the operations it performs within my mind on my identity and perspective.

lol. Genesis says "In the Begining God Created the heavens and the earth"

The Hebrew word
[SIZE=+1]arb [/SIZE]Bara' (baw-raw');
is translated as created and it means:

1. to create, shape, form
2. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
   1. of heaven and earth
   2. of individual man
   3. of new conditions and circumstances
   4. of transformations
3. (Niphal) to be created
   1. of heaven and earth
   2. of birth
   3. of something new
   4. of miracles
4. (Piel)
   1. to cut down
   2. to cut out
5. to be fat
   1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

And who is the Divine Logos?...of course its Jesus (Rev 19:13).

2ti 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That's why i look at it as having authority.

 

[doppelganger]

lol. Genesis says "In the Begining God Created the heavens and the earth"

The Hebrew word
[SIZE=+1]arb [/SIZE]Bara' (baw-raw');

Check out Gesenius's Lexicon entry for the bara'. Almost all of the associations are for bringing form to something: polishing, carving, pruning, cutting away (the primary association). For your purposes, you like creation ex nihilo, but that's not what the text says. It says bara'.

Jesus may or may not be the Divine Logos. It depends on whether you know the Mystery of Christ.

 

[JayHawes]

I'm not sure that he actually went that far in the King Follett Discourse. I think his point was that we are literally created in God's image and that we look like Him. When he said that God was once as we are now, I believe he was saying that, like His son, Jesus Christ, He once walked "an earth" as a mortal being, and that, also like His son, He is now an immortal being. Witnesses to Christ's ascention into Heaven said that He was taken up into the sky in bodily form. As Latter-day Saints, we believe that He is in Heaven today, in bodily form and that He sits on His Father's right hand side. (We have a really hard time trying to figure out how He could sit on the right side of a being who has no form.)

You say over and over again that God sits in bodily form in heaven. Again scripture rejects this:

1co 15:50Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can`t inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God God cannot be sitting in heaven with a body.

Joh 4:24God is a Spirit

Not flesh, not a mortal body.

We were created in God's image- and we have a spirit, simliar to him, as he is a spirit. Is there any chance God is in a mortal body? No, God declares no flesh, no mortal body can enter heaven. This verse is explicit:

Nu 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

God has never lied, or repented. If he was then once a man (and therefore sinful) and exalted to god-hood this would be a lie.


Again I quote Joh 4:24"God is a Spirit "and "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"Luke 24:39

There is a difference between being a spirit and having a spirit. Jesus says the father is a spirit meaning that he lacks a body intirely.

_____________________________________________________________
(Emphasis added)
Tatian the Syrian


"Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things" (Address to the Greeks 4 [A.D. 170]).

Didymus the Blind


"God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts" (The Holy Spirit 35 [A.D. 362]).

Irenaeus


"Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God" (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).

Hilary of Poitiers


"First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient. It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need. God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting" (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).

 

[jonny]

Hi JayHawes,

The scriptures state that Christ was resurrected. I'm assuming you also believe that this means that his spirit and body were reunited. When he ascended into heaven he still had a body. Could you please show me in the scriptures where it states that after Christ ascended to heaven, that he shed his body? Also, do you believe in a literal resurrection of all mankind (Do you believe that our spirits and bodies will be reunited)? If so, do you believe that we will also eventually shed our bodies? Finally, if we will shed our bodies and remain spirits for eternity, what is the point of the resurrection?

 

[JayHawes]

Hi JayHawes,

The scriptures state that Christ was resurrected. I'm assuming you also believe that this means that his spirit and body were reunited. When he ascended into heaven he still had a body. Could you please show me in the scriptures where it states that after Christ ascended to heaven, that he shed his body? Also, do you believe in a literal resurrection of all mankind (Do you believe that our spirits and bodies will be reunited)? If so, do you believe that we will also eventually shed our bodies? Finally, if we will shed our bodies and remain spirits for eternity, what is the point of the resurrection?

Flesh must become incorruptible. IN truth God will change our bodies, not shed it to make us just a spirit. Now The bible never says Jesus went into heaven with a body, you assume so. But the bible says Jesus was taken from among their sight (Acts 1:9). When Jesus was resurrected his spirit did go back into his body, so will ours. But just as the bible says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Our bodies will no longer be flesh but will be glorified- made free of sin, and therefore no more flesh and blood.

1co 15:50 -Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1co 15:52 -In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What must be changed?: Flesh and Blood, because it is corruptible

1co 15:53 -For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In other words God will change our mortal body, into a glorifed body no longer affected by death and sin. This is the body Jesus shall have, a glorified body, not flesh, not bones, not physical.

Jesus being in a physical body here on earth has nothing to do with heaven. This is a physical realm, just as all other times when angels appear they appear as physical men, so when Jesus, he appeared physical. BUt we can also understand that Angels are spirits (Ps 104:4). Did Christ shed his body? Well we can understand that flesh and blood does not attain heaven, and also let us know that Christ was raised in a perfected body, we yet wait on this. What is the point of the ressurection? It is to give us new bodies. Not the same fleshly bodies but incoprruptible, sinless and perfect bodies.

 

[BruceDLimber]

>Was God once a man?

No: definitely not.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[JayHawes]

Have all the LDS Church simply ignored this Thread...lol....
Is it becuase you cannot refure the bible passages given? Unless you jsut make excuses for them.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Is it becuase you cannot refure the bible passages given?

The Bible passages are from Human. The symbol of God in question is the one we know from the Bible. We know this God from Human. This God was formed in our minds--even if physically/spiritually real, God must first exist in our minds for us to perceive It.

Whether or not God was once a Human, It was certainly perceived of as human. Anthropocentrism is a powerful thing.

 

[jonny]

Have all the LDS Church simply ignored this Thread...lol....
Is it becuase you cannot refure the bible passages given? Unless you jsut make excuses for them.

I'm bored with it. It has nothing to do with not being able to "refute" the Bible passages given. It has to do with knowledge, from experience, that these threads rarely end up convincing anyone of anything.

As for ignoring comments and making excuses, why don't you go though this thread (and the others), starting at the beginning, and respond to all the posts and comments you ignored. Believe me, there are plenty of them...

 

[JaniceJoplin]

Jesus Christ

 

[jonny]

Since you took the time to answer, I'll take the time to respond.

Flesh must become incorruptible. IN truth God will change our bodies, not shed it to make us just a spirit.

This is consistent with LDS beliefs.

Now The bible never says Jesus went into heaven with a body, you assume so.

Ok. It also doesn't say anywhere that his spirit left his body. So, how is your belief more valid than mine?

But the bible says Jesus was taken from among their sight (Acts 1:9). When Jesus was resurrected his spirit did go back into his body, so will ours. But just as the bible says "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Our bodies will no longer be flesh but will be glorified- made free of sin, and therefore no more flesh and blood.

Mormons do not believe that God's body and our body are the same. Obviously we have a mortal body. We believe that God has a tangible body that is immortal and glorified. We also believe He has a spirit.

1co 15:50 -Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1co 15:52 -In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What must be changed?: Flesh and Blood, because it is corruptible

1co 15:53 -For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

In other words God will change our mortal body, into a glorifed body no longer affected by death and sin. This is the body Jesus shall have, a glorified body, not flesh, not bones, not physical.

Nothing you posted is inconsistent with LDS beliefs. So, do you believe this glorified body is tangible or intangible? This is the problem most people have with our beliefs.

Jesus being in a physical body here on earth has nothing to do with heaven. This is a physical realm, just as all other times when angels appear they appear as physical men, so when Jesus, he appeared physical. BUt we can also understand that Angels are spirits (Ps 104:4). Did Christ shed his body? Well we can understand that flesh and blood does not attain heaven, and also let us know that Christ was raised in a perfected body, we yet wait on this. What is the point of the ressurection? It is to give us new bodies. Not the same fleshly bodies but incoprruptible, sinless and perfect bodies.

Please define a "sinless" and "perfect" body for me. Mormons do not believe that God's body and our body are the same in any respect other than that they appear the same and they are both tangible. Obviously the biology is different since they are immortal and perfect. Forget the biology. That is not where the differences lie.

 

[Katzpur]

You say over and over again that God sits in bodily form in heaven.

Again scripture rejects this:

1co 15:50Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can`t inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God God cannot be sitting in heaven with a body.

No, your interpretation of scripture rejects it.

In Acts 7:55-56, we read of Stephen's account of looking into the Heavens and seeing God: "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

You're the one who continues to insist that we can't take this literally. Well, I can, and I do. There are verses in the Bible to which you put a literal interpretation. If Stephen had seen only Christ, his telling of the story doesn't seem to say that. One being cannot be on the right of another unless the other has a physical form.

John 4:24God is a Spirit

Not flesh, not a mortal body.

So you don't believe that Christ still has His resurrected body, the "body of flesh and bones" described in the scriptures? What did He do with it after He ascended into Heaven? By the way, you will never hear a Latter-day Saint describe God as a "mortal." Jesus was not a mortal being when He returned to Heaven. He was an immortal being.

Is there any chance God is in a mortal body? No, God declares no flesh, no mortal body can enter heaven. This verse is explicit:

Nu 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

It is? Where does it say that no flesh can enter Heaven?

God has never lied, or repented. If he was then once a man (and therefore sinful) and exalted to god-hood this would be a lie.

You're going around in circles. Jesus was once a man. He was not "therefore sinful." You really need to learn to be more careful before presenting arguments that are so easily shown to be full of holes.

 

[Katzpur]

Most mormons will agree that they are not gods here on earth but must be exalted to god-hood.

Most Mormons? How about 100% of them?

Jesus when he came to earth was already God (Col 2:9), he was not in an exaltation state. Therefore his being sinless cannot be compared to us. We have yet to attain the sinless state.

I agree that Jesus was already God, but was not, during His mortal life, in an exalted state.

Some mormon teachings state that God was once man, and that he was exalted to god-hood.

What about this is so hard to understand, Jay? If Jesus was God, but not in an exalted state during His mortality, why would it have been impossible for God to have been God, but not in an exalted state and to have had a mortal sojourn somewhere as His Son did? And what about that idea is so repugnant to you?

...what then about Jesus or the Holy spirit, or where they all exalted in one man?

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Also not to mention the countless number of angels... they are also called the "sons of God" were they then exalted to god-hood also?

Again, I don't know what you're asking. We're all children of God and we all have been given the same potential.

 

[Katzpur]

Have all the LDS Church simply ignored this Thread...lol....

What the hell are you talking about? 61 of the 139 posts on this thread are by Latter-day Saints.

Is it becuase you cannot refure the bible passages given? Unless you jsut make excuses for them.

You've got a serious problem here. Nobody has been ignoring you. Maybe you've just been ignoring our replies. I don't know about the rest of the LDS posters here, but I'm sick of addressing this drivel. If I "simply ignore this thread" from here on out, it's because I have better things to do than to repeat myself for the two dozenth time.