Victims of Communism

[Audie]

William Henry Harrison likely didn't.

I was just correcting the style, not the content.

 

[Sunstone]

How dare you!

I didn't devote several minutes of my life to perfecting my theory and amassing zero reams of watertight, irrefutable evidence only to have some Jonny-come-lately pilfer it!

Too late for that! Check out September's Quarterly Review of Unscrupulously Stolen Ideas.

 

[suncowiam]

Not directed at any one poster, just a comment on the topic

Interesting to note, that although Mao did commit his share of atrocities, so did the Kuomintang before him (they were just better at covering it up..and look at what they did when they got to Taiwan) and virtually most emperors of China had their share...even the 1st (Qin Shi Huang) ...but then I am not sure Mao reached the level of Stalin and lets not forget Pol Pot and of course Adolph Hitler.... but then Hitler was not a communist was he....but then if you are looking at history look at the atrocities, look at those committed by Christians during the Crusades...early on in the Crusades the Crusaders slaughtered a multitude of people in Jerusalem...did not matter if they the religion...they killed them all.... come forward a bit..... European conquest of the Americas did not go so well for the indigenous inhabitants (Indians)...and the American Indian treatment by the Americans was in many cases quite the atrocity......Back to China....the Japanese (non-communists) and the massacres and atrocities they committed against the Chinese people, Chaingjiao or Nanking ring any bells and then of course the Bataan death march.... and lets not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki either.

However if you read the original article it is talking about Tiananmen square....and Mao had nothing to do with that...he was dead at the time. And although it was horrific...my wife lived 2 blocks from there and could hear the gun fire and saw tanks...She also had medical colleagues shot in the square who were trying to help students.....But her take on it is a little different....she does not condone what happened and she worked in the hospital that saw some of the casualties...but she also knew that when the premier at that time, Deng Xiaoping, told those in the square to get out of the square or he would bring in the military at a specified time...that the students better get out of the square or they military would be there at that time....still not a justification...but neither her nor any of her collogues, even those that did get shot (they survived by the way) were all that surprised when the military rolled in..they just wished that the kids in the square had listened and left...and something else...this went on a whole heck of a lot longer than we were told in the west...... still not a justification.... but we do not have all the facts...however it is still atrocity.

Also should note my wife's also had a maternal Grandfather that worked for Mao and yet my wife's paternal side of the family were victims of Mao's attack on land owners.....

But to the point...the "Communists" do not have a corner on the market when it comes to atrocities and cruelty to their fellow man....look at history and sadly you will see a whole lot of that....look at English history, European history, Russian history, African history Middle East, Far East, even Easter Island and the US history and you find an whole lot of mans inhumanity to man...there are a whole lot of victims out there that Communism had absolutely nothing to do with.

Communist have their share that is true....but pointing the finger solely at them and turning a blind eye to all the others is just plain wrong......

But the suggestion that other systems are bad if not just as bad as some sort of justification is just as plain wrong.

No one, is suggesting that other systems are perfect. Some could make the suggestion that other systems are better.

Still, this thread is not to compare against other systems but those that choose to compare can't possibly prove equivalence between other systems.

The fact that no system is perfect and will result with zero victims should suggest that yes, some governments are better for society even if they can't result with zero victims.

Again, for those that choose to compare, I would like to ask what society would you prefer to live in then? The one being criticized in this thread or the society you've compared against?

I for one, am literally a victim of communism and it was capitalism/democracy that accepted us. So I have a very biased opinion of this but mostly based on actual life experiences between the two governments.

 

[Nicholas]

I have no problems with the victims, and there are millions, but I do believe that scapegoating on nebulously defined economic system misses the source of the suffering.

Communist controlled nations are not scapegoats, nor are their victims suffering from a "nebulously defined economic system".

So the root cause is the dark side of human nature - so what? Where does that leave us? One conventional response is: Evil is everywhere, so all evils are equal, which effectively paralyzes action (save talking). Even close study is repellent, after all it is ugly - I must avert my face.

As some sage put it - Evil will always triumph over passivity & indifference.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was just correcting the style, not the content.

Okie dokie.
(I'm rather dense.)

 

[Wu Wei]

But the suggestion that other systems are bad if not just as bad as some sort of justification is just as plain wrong.

No one, is suggesting that other systems are perfect. Some could make the suggestion that other systems are better.

Still, this thread is not to compare against other systems but those that choose to compare can't possibly prove equivalence between other systems.

The fact that no system is perfect and will result with zero victims should suggest that yes, some governments are better for society even if they can't result with zero victims.

Again, for those that choose to compare, I would like to ask what society would you prefer to live in then? The one being criticized in this thread or the society you've compared against?

I for one, am literally a victim of communism and it was capitalism/democracy that accepted us. So I have a very biased opinion of this but mostly based on actual life experiences between the two governments.

That's fine, and I don't doubt it at all. I do however know a lot of folks that live in a communist country that are doing better than most in the west and they are in China. Would I want to live there? no. But many do and many thrive and many are not oppressed nor do they live in fear. A lot did from 1966 to 1976, but not so many these days. The first part of my wife's life was the Cultural Revolution, and her fathers family was persecuted. I am not saying atrocities do not occur in China or Russia or any other similar country with a similar government. I am saying one should not forget they are not the only ones and the others should not be given a pass just because they are not communist. And based on history there have been a lot.

 

[Wu Wei]

William Henry Harrison likely didn't.

aka "Old Tippecanoe".

 

[Spiderman]

Pick on China, and lets see where it goes.

Shall we proceed to the horrors inflicted by the USA
in the name of capitalism?

Here is one set-you know the store, "Banana Republic"?

Perhaps you know where the term came from?

United fruit, the marines, governments overthrown,
and the resulting chaos that now has all those
tragic people streaming north in the hopes of a life
in the land that destroyed theirs?

Heard of any of that?

Yet i've seen you defend communist China, which killed more Chinese people than the Japanese killed, and killed for more people than the Nazis did.

Why defend something so blatantly atrocious?

 

[suncowiam]

That's fine, and I don't doubt it at all. I do however know a lot of folks that live in a communist country that are doing better than most in the west and they are in China. Would I want to live there? no. But many do and many thrive and many are not oppressed nor do they live in fear. A lot did from 1966 to 1976, but not so many these days. The first part of my wife's life was the Cultural Revolution, and her fathers family was persecuted. I am not saying atrocities do not occur in China or Russia or any other similar country with a similar government. I am saying one should not forget they are not the only ones and the others should not be given a pass just because they are not communist. And based on history there have been a lot.

I'm glad you answered my question about which system you like to live in.

I wouldn't mind living in communism either if I found success, but frankly I would still support the ideologies of democracy and capitalism over communism. How it's executed is a whole other story.

I find it funny that some pro communist people living in democracies take for granted that they have the power to change their government into their vision of communism. They have the freedom of speech and to vote. Try that in communist countries.

Now if these same successful communists can find success in democracy with the added level of individual freedom, why shouldn't they choose democracy? Or would they be afraid that their peers have too much freedom of speech and power in their government?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not much of anyone in HK is a fan of Beijing.

I still remember the transfer of power from UK to China. Opportunity to make a stand? Nope. Just threw up the arms with a, "Well there's not anything we can do" mentality.

Then the Communists marched in and took over.

 

[Wu Wei]

I'm glad you answered my question about which system you like to live in.

I wouldn't mind living in communism either if I found success, but frankly I would still support the ideologies of democracy and capitalism over communism. How it's executed is a whole other story.

I find it funny that some pro communist people living in democracies take for granted that they have the power to change their government into their vision of communism. They have the freedom of speech and to vote. Try that in communist countries.

Now if these same successful communists can find success in democracy with the added level of individual freedom, why shouldn't they choose democracy? Or would they be afraid that their peers have too much freedom of speech and power in their government?

All I can say is that both Russia and China as well as North Korea have a rather tight grip on their media. This tells me they consider something like freedom of speech a threat

 

[Kirran]

Not much of anyone in HK is a fan of Beijing.

Figures. Knew a guy who was formerly a journalist there, but got fired cos he joined the protests.

What do you think of Demosisto?

 

[Audie]

Figures. Knew a guy who was formerly a journalist there, but got fired cos he joined the protests.

What do you think of Demosisto?

I feel sorry for them. Heroic, but doomed, is my take.

 

[shunyadragon]

Communist controlled nations are not scapegoats, nor are their victims suffering from a "nebulously defined economic system".

So the root cause is the dark side of human nature - so what? Where does that leave us? One conventional response is: Evil is everywhere, so all evils are equal, which effectively paralyzes action (save talking). Even close study is repellent, after all it is ugly - I must avert my face.

As some sage put it - Evil will always triumph over passivity & indifference.

You misquote me, and misrepresent me. Go back read and respond properly to my posts.

 

[Nicholas]

Not one comment on a single Victim, yet. So here is Vaclav Klaus' story:

 

[shunyadragon]

Not one comment on a single Victim, yet. So here is Vaclav Klaus' story:

I acknowledged the suffering and death of the victims beyond number, but you misquote and misrepresent my posts,

Still waiting for a proper response . . .

 

[suncowiam]

All I can say is that both Russia and China as well as North Korea have a rather tight grip on their media. This tells me they consider something like freedom of speech a threat

So who represents these Nations and why would they believe that freedom of speech is a threat.

 

[Wu Wei]

So who represents these Nations and why would they believe that freedom of speech is a threat.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

The governments of these countries control the media and this tells me they are not a fan of free speech since they do sensor all news outlets and in China much of the web as well. I can only assume Russia does the same.

 

[Nicholas]

I acknowledged the suffering and death of the victims beyond number, but you misquote and misrepresent my posts,

Still waiting for a proper response . . .

Lack of propriety is a major flaw in my character.

 

[Nicholas]

Now the experiences of a Cuban Freedom Fighter...