Victims of Communism

[Audie]

Perhaps I am wrong, but it sounds like few if any respondents, so far, have watched the testimonies of the Victims. Generalities are easier to pontificate upon, than hearing the stories of actual people.

Oh - by the way, the Victims testifying are mainly from nations other than China.

Thing is, there are so many victims to testify to horrible
events, from every corner of the world.

Do we want to run oppression olympics?

It kind of comes to another hard luck story that we dont
want to hear. What it the point? I've my own story
of not-so-good events,that I wont enter in the olys.

 

[Audie]

Probably not, I am a difficult person to get on with.

Now I am starting to like you, but dont get no ideas.

 

[Mox]

Perhaps I am wrong, but it sounds like few if any respondents, so far, have watched the testimonies of the Victims.

I don't watch posted videos online. Sorry.

 

[Audie]

I don't watch posted videos online. Sorry.

You better watch the one I posted of Hong Kong, or
else I will fly into a rage, jump through the computer.
and beat you up!! 46kg of righteous fury!

 

[Sunstone]

Seems like a bit of whataboutism.

I'm normally opposed to whataboutism, but to me this is a special case. I've seen how the US uses communism as the benchmark for evil and by implication sees its own actions as good -- or at least good enough to justify them -- since they don't attain to the evils of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Most whataboutism is absent that context.

Beyond that, I'm sick of our wars of aggression and of the indifference of large numbers of Americans to the suffering we cause the peoples of the countries we attack or destabilize. When our leaders call for a war, I almost never hear anyone object to the noncombatants we're going to kill, maim, and cripple. I don't know what it's like where you're at, but that's what it's like here.

There is a question of scale.

Mao was a truly vile character and he does have rather a lot more blood on his hand than the average tyrant.

Indeed he was.

 

[Mox]

Now I am starting to like you, but dont get no ideas.

Oh it's too hot for hormones.

 

[Augustus]

But it was also, picking on China.

Why is it picking on China to remember the Chinese victims of Mao? It's just remembering history. Same as remembering the victims of the totalitarian regimes.

Victims of oppression and their families often want other people to recognise the crimes rather than sweep them under the carpet.

Mao is long dead of course, but,
interestingly, I have an uncle, who
was so involved, he cannot give it up.
Dont ever get him started!!!

Sounds interesting, what does he say about the era?

Cognitive dissonance and group identity can be very powerful. Leon Festinger who coined the term investigated a doomsday cult found that when the promised destruction of earth never happened, instead of cult members becoming disillusioned they actually became more committed to the cause.

My completely speculative theory without a shred of evidence is that something like this happened when Jesus was crucified before the expected eschaton leading to the belief that his sacrifice had atoned for mankind's sins and delayed the apocalypse.

 

[Wu Wei]

Not directed at any one poster, just a comment on the topic

Interesting to note, that although Mao did commit his share of atrocities, so did the Kuomintang before him (they were just better at covering it up..and look at what they did when they got to Taiwan) and virtually most emperors of China had their share...even the 1st (Qin Shi Huang) ...but then I am not sure Mao reached the level of Stalin and lets not forget Pol Pot and of course Adolph Hitler.... but then Hitler was not a communist was he....but then if you are looking at history look at the atrocities, look at those committed by Christians during the Crusades...early on in the Crusades the Crusaders slaughtered a multitude of people in Jerusalem...did not matter if they the religion...they killed them all.... come forward a bit..... European conquest of the Americas did not go so well for the indigenous inhabitants (Indians)...and the American Indian treatment by the Americans was in many cases quite the atrocity......Back to China....the Japanese (non-communists) and the massacres and atrocities they committed against the Chinese people, Chaingjiao or Nanking ring any bells and then of course the Bataan death march.... and lets not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki either.

However if you read the original article it is talking about Tiananmen square....and Mao had nothing to do with that...he was dead at the time. And although it was horrific...my wife lived 2 blocks from there and could hear the gun fire and saw tanks...She also had medical colleagues shot in the square who were trying to help students.....But her take on it is a little different....she does not condone what happened and she worked in the hospital that saw some of the casualties...but she also knew that when the premier at that time, Deng Xiaoping, told those in the square to get out of the square or he would bring in the military at a specified time...that the students better get out of the square or they military would be there at that time....still not a justification...but neither her nor any of her collogues, even those that did get shot (they survived by the way) were all that surprised when the military rolled in..they just wished that the kids in the square had listened and left...and something else...this went on a whole heck of a lot longer than we were told in the west...... still not a justification.... but we do not have all the facts...however it is still atrocity.

Also should note my wife's also had a maternal Grandfather that worked for Mao and yet my wife's paternal side of the family were victims of Mao's attack on land owners.....

But to the point...the "Communists" do not have a corner on the market when it comes to atrocities and cruelty to their fellow man....look at history and sadly you will see a whole lot of that....look at English history, European history, Russian history, African history Middle East, Far East, even Easter Island and the US history and you find an whole lot of mans inhumanity to man...there are a whole lot of victims out there that Communism had absolutely nothing to do with.

Communist have their share that is true....but pointing the finger solely at them and turning a blind eye to all the others is just plain wrong......

 

[Audie]

Oh it's too hot for hormones.

Too hot for fighting then. Get you some other time.

Really, tho, HK is just the coolest place, you might
enjoy the vid.

 

[Augustus]

I'm normally opposed to whataboutism, but to me this is a special case. I've seen how the US uses communism as the benchmark for evil and by implication sees its own actions as good -- or at least good enough to justify them -- since they don't attain to the evils of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Most whataboutism is absent that context.

Beyond that, I'm sick of our wars of aggression and of the indifference of large numbers of Americans to the suffering we cause the peoples of the countries we attack or destabilize. When our leaders call for a war, I almost never hear anyone object to the noncombatants we're going to kill, maim, and cripple.

Ever read The irony of Manifest Destiny by William Pfaff? I think you'd like it.

It's an interesting discussion of America's perceived intrinsic goodness. It's a shame he died a few years ago as he was one of the few political commentators who consistently offered interesting and highly erudite insights on international politics due to his wonderful breadth of knowledge.

 

[Sunstone]

Ever read The irony of Manifest Destiny by William Pfaff? I think you'd like it.

It's an interesting discussion of America's perceived intrinsic goodness. It's a shame he died a few years ago as he was one of the few political commentators who consistently offered interesting and highly erudite insights on international politics due to his wonderful breadth of knowledge.

Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't think the USA can compete with the tens of millions killed by Mao's Great Leap Forward.

Probably not directly, but through militarism interference and supporting corrupt despotic governments that directly murdered millions the USA comes close.

The USA is directly responsible for a great deal of the drug trade in recent history that has led to the suffering and death of millions.

 

[Revoltingest]

To be stylistically consistent, you should say-

Aint no president of the US never didnt have blood on his hand's.

William Henry Harrison likely didn't.

 

[Sunstone]

My completely speculative theory without a shred of evidence is that something like this happened when Jesus was crucified before the expected eschaton leading to the belief that his sacrifice had atoned for mankind's sins and delayed the apocalypse.

I actually arrived at a roughly similar line of speculation about Jesus. But I like yours better, so I'm going to steal it.

 

[Revoltingest]

For whatever reasons the stories of people victimized by varied communist governments does not get much coverage, and thus we do not fully realize the horrors still being visited upon the people of China, Cuba & other nations.
Here are a few examples, told by those who personally knew what happened:

https://www.victimsofcommunism.org/witnessproject

Good luck with your thread.
It'll be met with attacks on capitalism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here are some horrors of "communism"

And here I always thought Hong Kong was a capitalist enclave.
Ref....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Hong_Kong

Hong Kong's economic policy has often been cited by economists such as Milton Friedman and the
Cato Institute as an example of laissez-faire capitalism, attributing the city's success to the policy.

Of course, no system is pure.
But they rank tops in economic liberty.
Ref...
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

 

[Augustus]

I actually arrived at a roughly similar line of speculation about Jesus. But I like yours better, so I'm going to steal it.

How dare you!

I didn't devote several minutes of my life to perfecting my theory and amassing zero reams of watertight, irrefutable evidence only to have some Jonny-come-lately pilfer it!

 

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps I am wrong, but it sounds like few if any respondents, so far, have watched the testimonies of the Victims. Generalities are easier to pontificate upon, than hearing the stories of actual people.

Oh - by the way, the Victims testifying are mainly from nations other than China.

I have no problems with the victims, and there are millions, but I do believe that scapegoating on nebulously defined economic system misses the source of the suffering.

 

[Kirran]

@Audie - you're a Hong Konger?

If I set the background by conceding up-front that yes, Western countries including the USA have committed and continue to commit all sorts of human rights atrocities, as do government of states all around the world, what would you then say if I asked you to discuss specifically China, and the human rights issues etc the PRC perpetrates and has perpetrated?

I am a bit of a Sinophile to be honest, but I'm also no fan at all of the PRC. The Falun Gong stuff alone!

 

[Audie]

@Audie - you're a Hong Konger?

If I set the background by conceding up-front that yes, Western countries including the USA have committed and continue to commit all sorts of human rights atrocities, as do government of states all around the world, what would you then say if I asked you to discuss specifically China, and the human rights issues etc the PRC perpetrates and has perpetrated?

I am a bit of a Sinophile to be honest, but I'm also no fan at all of the PRC. The Falun Gong stuff alone!

Not much of anyone in HK is a fan of Beijing.