Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

[ecco]

Let's put this into context. You asserted...

I would like to see this actually enforced, and it's not, largely because fetuses born alive are killed, and abortions are performed past the 24th week that are not for reasons of health.

I replied...

The point is that you have not shown any evidence that this is being violated. You have not shown that "abortions are performed past the 24th week that are not for reasons of health".

​

Are you saying that you don't believe such things are going on? Despite the testimonies of women who come forward to say that they did this? Despite the testimonies of nurses?

What testimonies of nurses? Have you presented any verifiable stories or links? No.

And what do you have to say about the doctors who routinely killed living babies who survive abortions? I have yet to see any response from you or anyone else on this thread about this.

What doctors have routinely killed living babies? Have you presented any verifiable stories or links?

So far you have provided no evidence to support your claim that "abortions are performed past the 24th week that are not for reasons of health." None.

So here you try again...

"According to a study by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, none of the women they surveyed who were seeking late-term abortion were doing so due to a medical issue. None of the women were aborting due to a health risk to themselves or due to a prenatal diagnosis of their preborn child. Each of the women was seeking an abortion after 20 weeks gestation because she simply did not want to have a baby."Women admit to late-term abortion because they didn't know they were pregnant

First off, your link is to a very biased site:

WHO WE ARE:
Live Action News is the publishing arm of Live Action, publishing pro-life news and commentary from a pro-life perspective. Live Action is an organization dedicated to building a culture of life and advancing human rights. Live Action uses powerful and dynamic media platforms to educate the public about the humanity of the preborn and investigative journalism to expose the threats against the vulnerable and defenseless.​

Secondly, the article states...

According to a study by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, none of the women they surveyed who were seeking late-term abortion were doing so due to a medical issue. None of the women were aborting due to a health risk to themselves or due to a prenatal diagnosis of their preborn child. Each of the women was seeking an abortion after 20 weeks gestation because she simply did not want to have a baby.​

Well, let's look at the article...

Why women present for abortions after 20 weeks.​

There have been huge improvements in access to abortion services over the past decade, and today more than 80% of terminations are performed at under 10 weeks gestation, compared to 67% in 2005. However the proportion of abortions performed after 20 weeks (and before the legal limit of 24 weeks) has remained stable over that same period, accounting for between 1 to 2% of all terminations performed.
​

Did you notice the part I colored red?

So, still no evidence to support your allegations, even with the help of a very biased site which posted an article with an intentionally misleading title.

 

[ecco]

Given that women WANT abortions after 24 weeks, and that providers exist who believe in the ideal that abortion should be available on demand right up until delivery,

See above post #181.

 

[ecco]

I also tend to trust studies that are published in peer review journals, so for example I have great confidence that the main reason women want abortions after the 24th week is because they didn't know they were pregnant earlier.

Your above comments are interesting from the standpoint that they concisely show how great your self-deception is.

1. You linked to an article in a very biased anti-abortion site (Live Action). Live Action is not a peer-reviewed site
2. The anti-abortion site referred to an article in BPAS. BPAS is not a peer-reviewed site.
3. The LiveAction site did not indicate that abortions were being performed after the 24-week limit.
4. The BPAS article clearly referred to abortions under the 24-week limit.

Yet, somehow, you "have great confidence that the main reason women want abortions after the 24th week" is based on your trust in studies from peer-reviewed journals. If that's the case why haven't you cited any?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Let's put this into context. You asserted...

You are basically denying human nature. There are people that if you give them the ball, they will run with it...out of bounds.

"Kermit Barron Gosnell (born February 9, 1941) is an American former physician[2] and abortion provider who was convicted of murdering three infants who were born alive during attempted abortion procedures; he was also convicted of involuntary manslaughter of one woman during an abortion procedure.[3][4][5][6][7]
Gosnell owned and operated the Women's Medical Society clinic in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and he was a prolific prescriber of OxyContin.[8] In 2011, Gosnell and various co-defendant employees were charged with eight counts of murder, 24 felony counts of performing illegal abortions beyond the state of Pennsylvania's 24-week time limit, and 227 misdemeanor counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. The murder charges related to an adult patient, Karnamaya Mongar, who died following an abortion procedure, and seven newborns said to have been killed by having their spinal cords severed with scissors after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of three of the infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar. Gosnell was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. After his conviction, Gosnell waived his right to appeal in exchange for an agreement by prosecutors not to seek the death penalty. He was sentenced instead to life in prison without the possibility of parole."
Kermit Gosnell - Wikipedia

 

[Curious George]

You (or at least another with your views) have been implying that my bias makes me unable to discern facts from propaganda. Forgive me if the posts I get tend to run together--it's 1 AM and I'm not able to pay THAT close of attention.

Well just because something is propaganda does not mean there is no truth.

Still, how so? You seem to have a part but are still missing the meat. What specifically I am asking you to differentiate?

 

[ecco]

You are basically denying human nature.

You are ignoring my requests to provide evidence to back up your assertions.

You are ignoring all the evidence that I posted that shows your assertions are baseless.

Period.
End of story.
Goodbye.

 

[tas8831]

You are basically denying human nature. There are people that if you give them the ball, they will run with it...out of bounds.

"Kermit Barron Gosnell (born February 9, 1941) is an American former physician[2] and abortion provider who was convicted of murdering three infants who were born alive during attempted abortion procedures; he was also convicted of involuntary manslaughter of one woman during an abortion procedure.[3][4][5][6][7]
Gosnell owned and operated the Women's Medical Society clinic in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and he was a prolific prescriber of OxyContin.[8] In 2011, Gosnell and various co-defendant employees were charged with eight counts of murder, 24 felony counts of performing illegal abortions beyond the state of Pennsylvania's 24-week time limit, and 227 misdemeanor counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. The murder charges related to an adult patient, Karnamaya Mongar, who died following an abortion procedure, and seven newborns said to have been killed by having their spinal cords severed with scissors after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of three of the infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar. Gosnell was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law. After his conviction, Gosnell waived his right to appeal in exchange for an agreement by prosecutors not to seek the death penalty. He was sentenced instead to life in prison without the possibility of parole."
Kermit Gosnell - Wikipedia

OK, so if I cite an article about the horrific child sexual abuse that occurs in the Catholic Church I can extrapolate that to all Christian sects?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, so if I cite an article about the horrific child sexual abuse that occurs in the Catholic Church I can extrapolate that to all Christian sects?

You can extrapolate it to all groups that work with children.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are ignoring my requests to provide evidence to back up your assertions.

You are ignoring all the evidence that I posted that shows your assertions are baseless.

Period.
End of story.
Goodbye.

My "documentation" is not research but common sense and reasoning. I'm assuming that you have those. However, you seem to refuse to use them.

A lot of the documentation is simply old, and unlikely to be in the regular media, which is highly slanted to be pro-abortion. However, this does not mean I haven't seen it. NOR DOES IT MEAN I CAN'T REASON MY WAY TO THE SAME POINTS.

 

[ecco]

...

My "documentation" is not research but common sense and reasoning. I'm assuming that you have those. However, you seem to refuse to use them.

Your common sense and my common sense are in disagreement about many things.

Science and common sense tell me there is a difference between an embryo, a fetus, and a child.

A lot of the documentation is simply old, and unlikely to be in the regular media, which is highly slanted to be pro-abortion. However, this does not mean I haven't seen it. NOR DOES IT MEAN I CAN'T REASON MY WAY TO THE SAME POINTS.

No need to shout. I don't know what you have seen and what you haven't seen. I can only go by what you post. You haven't posted anything to support your allegation about late-term abortions. The articles that you have posted actually reject your assertions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

...


Your common sense and my common sense are in disagreement about many things.

Science and common sense tell me there is a difference between an embryo, a fetus, and a child.

So does mine. However, it doesn't mean that an embryo and fetus aren't human rather than a pig or a tree, nor does it mean that they are not alive. As human life, even though they are not children, they do have certain rights. Perhaps not the same rights as children. But rights nonetheless.

 

[ecco]

So does mine. However, it doesn't mean that an embryo and fetus aren't human rather than a pig or a tree, nor does it mean that they are not alive. As human life, even though they are not children, they do have certain rights. Perhaps not the same rights as children. But rights nonetheless.

Perhaps you can substantiate your argument in countries like Vatican City. In this country, SCOTUS has ruled.

Also, you have provided no factual evidence to support any of your claims.

 

[ManSinha]

Going to get clinical here:

Male Circumcision originated in the Old Testament. I wonder what God's purpose for it was?

You mean God (?gasp) created an imperfect being that had then to be circumcised to remain clean?

Neither procedure would be necessary in modern cultures, but I can imagine awful hygiene problems if one lived where adequate clean water was NOT available.

With all due respect you would be worried about more than just genital hygiene

 

[ManSinha]

I do believe that the governing body should do all within their power to prevent murder.

You think that is murder - along with a fair number of others - BUT that is not a universal finding

 

[Prestor John]

You think that is murder - along with a fair number of others - BUT that is not a universal finding

There are people that believe killing your slave is not murder.

You see, once we start debating what/who is or is not "human enough", we find ourselves in some huge ethical lapses.

 

[ManSinha]

I always am somewhat mildly amused when people starting making leaps to justify their beliefs - a "slave" is a living breathing self thinking human that can exist on his / her own merits -

A freshly fertilized zygote is not and cannot survive outside of the womb independently, even with the most advanced medical help until around 24 weeks of age -

As the Americans say - You are comparing apples to oranges to try and make your point

 

[ecco]

There are people that believe killing your slave is not murder.

I believe that includes the Christian God.

 

[sooda]

Not at all.

I condemn the practice of mutilating the genitals of newborn females and would consider it child abuse.

On the other hand, I condone the practice of circumcision for newborn males.

There are those who believe both practices are harmful and should be considered child abuse.

Which parents should drawn the line on which practice is harmful?

Why? Male circumcision was widely practiced in other cultures long before the Hebrews existed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Perhaps you can substantiate your argument in countries like Vatican City. In this country, SCOTUS has ruled.

Also, you have provided no factual evidence to support any of your claims.

I am a Jew. Vatican City is Catholic. Our views do not match. I do not consider early abortions to be murder (although I consider them wrong). Catholics consider them murder. Obviously there is a difference.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑​

Perhaps you can substantiate your argument in countries like Vatican City. In this country, SCOTUS has ruled.

Also, you have provided no factual evidence to support any of your claims.

I am a Jew. Vatican City is Catholic. Our views do not match. I do not consider early abortions to be murder (although I consider them wrong). Catholics consider them murder. Obviously there is a difference.

I used "like" Vatican City as an example of a Country governed by Religious laws as compared to the USA.