1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Vaccinations and Religious Exemptions

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by IndigoChild5559, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I'd like to see a discussion about vaccinations and exemptions, mostly the religious ones, but also exemptions on any grounds. I've placed this in the Science and Religion section, but remember that the overwhelming majority of religious people such as myself vaccinate.

    The stakes are high. Measles is back, and every time there is measles, there are always some deaths. Same with the flu. Here in the Los Angeles area, believe it or not, we are actually having a typhus epidemic. Typhus is a disease that spreads where ever there is trash, because rats eat the trash and the fleas on the rats spread the disease. In other words it's a disease of pre-modern eras before cities had garbage pickups and vaccinations. Tthe shame on Los Angeles for its treatment of the homeless is fodder for another thread. But at any rate, the fleas have spread to places such as police offices and even city hall. Fleas that bite those that are infected and then spread the disease to others.

    When people are not vaccinated they obviously put not only themselves at risk, and put all others who are not vaccinated at risk, but they put a small percentage of the vaccinated public at risk, because no vaccination is 100% effective. My daughter had all her vaccinations, including TDaP, and yet as an adult she still caught whooping cough (pertussis) and nearly died. In generations past, when nearly everyone was vaccinated, we had what was known as a herd protection, where those whose vaccinations had failed were still protected because no one was really getting the disease, but that has now ended because of the growing prevalence of anti-vaccinators.

    So weigh in with your comments, pro and con.

    I'm pretty extreme. I see this as a public health issue and a child neglect issue. I do not think there should be any exceptions for vaccines except allergies to the vaccines themselves. Those who don't want to vaccinate should be forced to 1. for the health of the community (their right to throw a punch ends where my face begins) and 2. for the general welfare of their kids. If they continue to refuse, they should be fined, a child welfare case opened, and their kids taken and vaccinated against their will. Yeap, I'm serious about this stuff. I have no patience with those who are too stupid to recognize paranoid conspiracy theories.

    I read online an certain interchange. A woman who was anti-vaccination was asking what she could do to protect her children. The answers were harsh and to the point. One in particular was right on the mark. It said take your kids to the edge of the flat earth where the earth was fresher.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,943
    Ratings:
    +1,899

    For some reason, right across the river in Vancouver, Wa. they seem to be having a mini Measles pandemic. It all seems concentrated in a small area and so far limited to 13 people, though I thought it was around 25. I'm guessing it is due to non-vaccination by anti vax folk. I think it may be related to the same splinter Christian group, who've been in the news over the years. In Oregon City, the parents in two families have or are spending time in prison for letting their children die due to lack of medical care. Perhaps some of this pain will incentivize people to get vaccinations?
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,027
    Ratings:
    +4,822
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    I support mandatory vaccination, because of the growing international problem of disease. As far as I know any religious objections to vaccinations is based on rather vague scriptural references.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    24,997
    Ratings:
    +7,679
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    Its not my position, but on this site you will find a dearth of anti-vaxxers. I'll see if I can scrape together some reasons not to vaccinate, to provide opportunities for refutation. Play nice.

    Thimerisol! Thimerisol contains mercury and is used the in the production of multi-dose vaccines to kill germs that make it into the vials. Its a type of preservative.

    Allergic reactions. Sometimes kids have allergic reactions, so by giving them inoculations you are endangering them. If you inoculate a million some will be harmed.

    Super-strains are created by inoculating everyone. By inoculating you are making us all similar and weakening the human genome. This is immoral and could lead to the extinction of humankind.

    Children don't have a say in it. You are putting stuff into their bodies without their permission. Where are all the 'Consent' people? We mention sex and they come running, but when we talk about vaccines they're nowhere to be found. Double standard?

    What if God made viruses including STD's to destroy certain populations of people? Wouldn't you just be fighting against God? What would the Bible say about it?

    Vaccines are made by strangers in labs. We don't know what they are putting into them, and it gives too much power to the government. For all we know the government could put something bad into them in order to oppress the population. Its not biologically impossible with today's technology. Look with they did with opiates!

    Vaccines might be tuned to benefit specific racial groups.

    Vaccines can cause cancers if they alter DNA.
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,027
    Ratings:
    +4,822
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Thermisol now only comes in multi-dose vials, and it has never been considered a hazard in such small amounts actually below what people are exposed in the environment and food. Simply request single dose vials and they contan no mercury today.

    The potential hazard is miniscule compared to the hazards of the disease. Most problems involving allergies is knowing who has allergies like those to eggs.

    Get out your aluminum helmet with antenna for this one. The greatest hazard here is the misuse of antibiotics and not vaccines,

    Children do not have any say in most everything in their lives.

    God's will little anyone could do about it.

    A generous supply of lightning bolts for those that resist/

    Nothing.

    Pass out the hulahopes with rusty nails.

    . . . or maybe change everyone's skin color.

    Another cause for telethon's and fund raising wheelchair marathons.
     
    #5 shunyadragon, Feb 1, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    53,359
    Ratings:
    +17,552
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    That can't be repeated or emphasized enough.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Oh, I so hope like you that this will be a wake up call.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No problem. You are going to have to understand if I eventually forget that you are playing the devil's advocate. I'm not good at keeping everyone straight.

    The CDC has determined that the amount of mercury, even in the case of multiple vaccinations, is not dangerous to our health. To be on the anti-Thimerisol wagon, one has to literally believe that the Government wants to hurt its citizens, which is just whacko paranoid conspiracy theory stuff.

    I suppose granting exceptions to those who have known allergies to elements of the vaccinations. As to those one in a million exceptions who have disabling reactions, you have to weigh that against the greater number of disabling effects and deaths of the illnesses being prevented.

    This is NOT at all the same sort of evolution that goes on with anti-biotics. With anti-biotics, you have strains evolve that are resistant against known anti-biotics. With illnesses that have vaccines, they obviously will evolve (some faster than others, such as the flue) -- you simply create new vaccines for the new strains. They would not be considered "super strains." If a flu develops like the Spanish flu, it will be random variation, not at all due to the fact that we vaccinate.

    Children don't make their own decisions about anything except minor stuff and even then it is only with their parents' consent. The parents have the responsibility for the children's well being during the period of growth when they are not mature enough to decide things for themselves.

    I have often wondered if the purpose of viruses wasn't to keep populations in check. Because of modern medicine, the human population has skyrocketed so out of control that we are now threatening our very survival as a species (not to mention other species as well). But to withhold medical care is innately immoral -- we would be less than human if we consciously did so. I think somehow that there will be a deadly flu epidemic or something of that nature that will spread so fast that we won't have time to get a vaccine together, getting our population back in control without compromising our ethics.

    This is a legitimate concern. In fact, not five minutes ago I was reading about a vaccination company that left the vaccines out where they spoiled, causing small infections, and necessitating the need for a redo of the vaccinations. BUT the good from vaccination STILL outweighs the possible problems. As for terrorism, terrorism will be terrorism. You can't stop flying in planes just because a terrorist might hijack it. Your last two objections were just more of this same objection.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,943
    Ratings:
    +1,899
    I'm not medical, though have studied a lot to deal with my own issues. I do worry about this sort of "solvent" that they use in the vaccines because I've heard that it has led to an increase in Autism, though that is not confirmed. And, I am not convinced that Autism is all bad.
     
  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    24,997
    Ratings:
    +7,679
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    Mercury accumulates in the body and does not leave. The amount only increases, so even a little bit can make a difference over time. The CDC may measure the probabilities of damage all they like, but they won't get the mercury back out of you.

    It seems like its the parents who should weigh the risks and not someone unfamiliar with their children, so maybe the thing to do is inform parents of the risks instead of only broadcasting the potential benefits.

    True, viruses are bacteria, but they do mutate and can benefit from our interference. Vaccinations will affect the selection of which strains survive. For example the vaccines could encourage virus mutations to select for longer incubation periods or to replicate in people who don't notice the symptoms. As you point out the viruses are not being wiped out by vaccinations no matter what we do, and there are also new strains. That means they continue to evolve despite vaccinations, but we are not evolving as quickly as we could due to the vaccinations.

    This is intravenous interference not choosing which pretty hat to wear. A child cannot give consent.

    I like predictions that suggest our population has increased rapidly but will stabilize at around 11 billion which can be sustained, unless of course we extend lifespans a lot. Then the number will be higher, but we can still thrive or cope. We'll become vegetarians perhaps.

    The public is too trusting, allowing itself to rely upon an extensive power grid, public water and a delicate network of grocery stores. Sad to say mass vaccinations are typical.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    25,839
    Ratings:
    +10,039
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    My position on anti-vaxers and those simply to lazy to get vaccinations has, and always will be, if this is how they insist on living then it's only fair to others that they live in isolated communities and have only minimal physical contact with the outside world.

    .
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    7,686
    Ratings:
    +6,094
    Religion:
    Humanist
    If you want your child to go to school, playgroup, the doctors, a shopping mall, anywhere where it interacts with other children the child should be vaccinated.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    My son is Autistic, somewhere from moderate to high functioning. I'm very proud of how hard he has worked and the gains he has made. There are a couple of areas where he is naturally gifted -- I can give him anything mechanical or electronic that is broken and he will fix it. But his life has been so hard, his isolation from others so awful, his inability to read and write so disabling, and his poverty so discouraging to him, that I would never say that an autistic individual is simply "differently abled."

    The so-called link between vaccines and autism has been thoroughly debunked, and I mean thoroughly. They "study" that first presented the link was bogus, and the guy who did it was shown to have doctored his results (fraud). He is now a pariah in the scientific community.
    Report says 1998 vaccine-autism study was fraud
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This must have been a typo.
     
  15. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,943
    Ratings:
    +1,899
    I see Autism as an Evolutionary step, for which we will one day find the purpose.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,542
    Ratings:
    +4,938
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Vaccines are a controversial topic with much misinformation circulating and emotions charged on both sides of this argument. So what are the facts and who has them?
    • The Facts:
      The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act has paid approximately $4 billion to families with vaccine injured children, and it's continuing to grow. The act protects pharmaceutical companies from being held accountable and just compensates victims.

    • Reflect On:
      With all of the science, documented examples of scientific fraud and injury, why are vaccines still marketed as completely safe? There are multiple concerns to be addressed, so why are we told that "the science has spoken?" What's going on here?


      $4 Billion & Growing: U.S. Payouts for Vaccine Injuries & Deaths Keep Climbing
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    24,997
    Ratings:
    +7,679
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    Its not my position! Its not my position!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,653
    Ratings:
    +12,606
    Religion:
    Druidry
    I used to be pretty one-sided on this particular topic, but I haven't been able to muster that for a while. In the present era and foreseeable future, I'm okay with humans making a personal decision to forgo death-denying medical procedures from vaccination to life support. I'm also okay with humans making a personal decision utilize death-embracing medical procedures like euthanasia. Whether the reasons for that are described as "religious exemptions" is irrelevant to me.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,138
    Ratings:
    +750
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Certainly autistic individuals who are higher functioning have a certain niche.

    I am the sort that believes we should look for the potential in all. Everyone brings something to the table, including those with disabilities. Some people simply pay a higher price for their gifts. We need to be tolerant of our differences and appreciate our diversity. It would be a very boring world if all the flowers were the same color.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,943
    Ratings:
    +1,899
    I plan to use Euthanasia before Dementia, I hope.
     
Loading...