Unconditional Love verses Conditional Rewards

[Windwalker]

Love is simply attachment, whether it is conditional or unconditional. It is nothing special. There is no mystery or magic there.

Ufdah! There is no magic to life for you?

 

[Mox]

Ufdah! There is no magic to life for you?

Absolutely not. There is only nature and the laws of nature, known or unknown. There is no higher power.

 

[stvdv]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 42

My personal belief is that the term "love" is very misunderstood and probably mis-translated. My feeling is that it is awareness of the unity of being. The terms God and reward used together seem oxymoronic.

Thank you. You put this very nice, and in a well understandable way [I had to google for oxymoronic though; nice word]. I fully agree with this. More and more I think/speak on God-matters I realize it's all "Hypothetically speaking". This awareness makes me meek. That is what is so good on RF, having so many different views. And all having good lessons to teach me. For me the easiest way to let go "there is just 1 truth for all". Would mean all you guys on RF are wrong and I am the only one who knows "the truth". Or even worse "I am also wrong" and don't know what is "the truth".

 

[stvdv]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 43

Highly offensive. Unless you were speaking generalistically. Although still somewhat offensive.
I am in complete control of my sex drive, I chose to have children.
God love is a meaningless concept to me. I can only feel attachment for actually existing things. Like people, animals or plants etc..
Essentially I have no idea what you are talking about. Since nobody can possibly know what God is or even if he/she experiences human attachment or if you prefer, love.

Oh, I see. I totally did not address this to you as a person. Sorry, my mistake. That was insensitive I see now. I was speaking in general, like in science [more than maybe 50% are not in control of their sex drive. And children are there before they even know how children are born, as a figure of speech of course; in my street was a girl of 11 year having a baby already; seen from that perspective, and that 50-60% divorce rate etc.

Good to meet someone who is an exception to the rule. I agree that I put it a little blunt. I was remembering today a few encounters with my Master, who was very blunt to me on this subject. Just talking about it calling it by name "having sex, making babies". I was quite surprised that time, but contemplated it, and thought "yeah He is right, we all do it, and yet make such a big deal out of it when talking about it. At least I was shy about it". So my wording today came from that perspective.

No, I do not prefer to call "human attachment" Love.

 

[BilliardsBall]

God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Great questions! I unconditionally love others, but sometimes I must judge them.

 

[Windwalker]

Absolutely not. There is only nature and the laws of nature, known or unknown.

And this does not inspire you as magical? When you see the Mystery of this world, you don't see Love? You see nothing? Here's some insight from Albert Einstein on just this thing:

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

Just because someone rejects the anthorphomoshic God of religious mythologies, should not translate into seeing nothing magical in this Reality we find ourselves within. Do you really look at creation and see "nothing"? You do not see this Mystery as "higher" than you? Perhaps you've given away your power to religion?

 

[Magpie1978]

You sound confused my friend about the 'Christian' perspective with their unconditionally loving God. Its easy. Let me help you....

God loves us unconditionally but if we don't do what He asks in a few key areas of easy to understand theology (trinity, resurrection, Divinity) He sends us to hell for eternity.

God forgives the psychopathic, genocidal killer if He repents and says Jesus is Lord.

God doesn't forgive the Hindu who devotes their entire life to helping humanity because he doesn't say Jesus is Lord

Go in peace my brother

Your view is rather patronising and you come across like a plastic preacher
Your comment is unsupported and unsubstantiated and based merely on “YOUR” ideals of Christianity
So basically what you are implying is that as an example a poor unfortunate chap in a remote 3rd world country who has been living in poverty and is illiterate through no fault of his own but purely due to circumstances - this chap can’t read the bible and thus has not even a concept of Jesus or any other religion but the chap leads a good life and helps others etc- so your believe God will send this poor unfortunate to hell for eternity as punishment - then I would have to question what type of god would do that? And also question “your” interpretation of god

 

[Windwalker]

Your view is rather patronising and you come across like a plastic preacher
Your comment is unsupported and unsubstantiated and based merely on “YOUR” ideals of Christianity
So basically what you are implying is that as an example a poor unfortunate chap in a remote 3rd world country who has been living in poverty and is illiterate through no fault of his own but purely due to circumstances - this chap can’t read the bible and thus has not even a concept of Jesus or any other religion but the chap leads a good life and helps others etc- so your believe God will send this poor unfortunate to hell for eternity as punishment - then I would have to question what type of god would do that? And also question “your” interpretation of god

What's interesting is that he was making a parody of what he sees many Christians saying about God. It's humorous, because it has a kernel of actual truth to it found in the thinking of a great many Christians who do say such things, though not in quite so farcical a way. He was just taking the lipstick off the pig.

 

[Mox]

No, I do not prefer to call "human attachment" Love.

That is what love is, psychological attachment. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Mox]

And this does not inspire you as magical? When you see the Mystery of this world, you don't see Love? You see nothing?

Love is psychological attachment. A subjective condition of the mind. A product of neurological and biochemical interactions.
There is no magic required.

Just because someone rejects the anthorphomoshic God of religious mythologies, should not translate into seeing nothing magical in this Reality we find ourselves within. Do you really look at creation and see "nothing"? You do not see this Mystery as "higher" than you? Perhaps you've given away your power to religion?

I see nothing but systems within systems. The natural order. The tendency of the univese to spontaneously form complex dynamic patterns of interaction. From stars to flowers.
I certainly see no magic.

I do not understand at all when people suggest that there is 'magic' in the world or in creation. I dont know what that means.

I see only what is real and measureable. I cannot see the unreal.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 29
God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Please read Psalms 11:5

 

[Mox]

Here's some insight from Albert Einstein on just this thing:

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

There is no mystery of life for me, life is not a mystery to me, at all. It's perfectly understandable. No different from anything else in the universe that manifested from chaos.

Maybe it was for Einstein. I genuinely couldn't really care less what he thinks on this non physics/science topic. No offence intended, I do appreciate your responding to my comments.

The opinions of others on esoteric matters, mean very little to me, in general.

However once again thankyou for your thoughts.

 

[Ishmael]

The Lord's Prayer

I believe that true Father's love their children but they often DO naturally expect these same children to honor them as their "creator."

I believe This (Honor) is certainly desired in keeping with Our Father's Law: Honour thy father and thy mother - Wikipedia

I believe IF you can create a thing, you can destroy a thing.

I believe IF retroactive abortion were legal, many of us would not be posting here. Just saying.

I believe it is wise to fear God like a Father you don't want to disobey.

I believe it is wise to Love God like a Father whose inheritance you'd desire to obtain.

I believe we all have the free will to choose good or choose evil, to try to find a way to communicate with Our Father, the creator, or to forget all about Him or deny Him entirely.

I believe our adversary and the Father's adversary still tempts us into many forms of disobedience, hence we are admonished not to align ourselves with any institution, observance or people the adversary had any hand in establishing.

I believe God loves you and me and everything in all His creation and that in His eyes at the end of all things it is GOOD.

I believe The Father is JUST and all his moral code is just and even this code shows that LOVING your Father & LOVING your neighbor will lead you upon the path to obtaining your inheritance.

I believe The First Fall from our Father through disobedience interfered with direct communication of His creation with its creator.

I believe the mystery of the gospel of Joshua the Messiah of Nazareth is necessary to be communicated for man to understand how the creation can return into direct communication with its creator.

I believe the doctrines of men which interfere in any way with the gospel or the history or the prophecies of Our Father should be rejected.

I believe Protestants should still protest.

But I digress.

Peace Out.

 

[nPeace]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 29
God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Very interesting post - both creative, and funny. A bit difficult too.
I could not vote, because, I don't think it is as simple as that.
Example one.
Death is a condition right? Can God love you unconditionally - if you are dead? Bad joke.
Example two.
So you are a nice playful, cute, adorable, pooch. Next thing you know, you are this vicious, hideous, flesh-devouring, monstrous beast. Can God love you unconditionally if you become what you were not made to be? Hmm Interesting... I think.

The scriptures say God is love, which is more than just, god has love.
Everything God does then, is directed by love.
So let's take a simple example.
Let's use a fictional character that everyone knows well - Superman - you know, the hero that saves the day, from the vile villains.

So this vicious villain is terrorizing the city of Metropolis. he's no ordinary villain though - super strong, super vicious, super destructive, super merciless.
However, there is a twist to this scenario. He is Superman's son, and he is out to destroy all humanity - for what purpose? Don't ask me, it's made up.
What does Superman do? Should he stop his son? There is only one way to do it. He has... well, let me just say - it's an excruciatingly painful death.

I think we all know how Superman feels. A man's got to do what a man's got to do right?
Though it saddens him - he must stop the monster, because of his love for humanity.

Hmm
Here is where I think it may seem a bit tricky.
So did he not love his son? Of course. He didn't love what he became though. So was the son still the son?
It would be interesting to hear how others respond to that question.

This is why I say it is not as straightforward as it seems. Once we see the bigger picture, things start to look a whole lot different.

One thing is for sure though.

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that die, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

Ezekiel 18:32

 

[sealchan]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 29
God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

All emotions and feelings are conditional...it is just that some bonds are made so deeply in our psyches, our neurologists that they are, in effect, highly unlikely to be broken. Memory alone helps us to remember our closeness and bonding even when injury, disease and abuse daily threaten it.

God has clearly drawn lines and provided punishments. His/Her/It's love is clearly conditional...or is it? Does punishing someone, does providing consequences for someone amount to not loving that person? What about a parent that sends you into exile? Did Dhritarastra hate the Pandavas? Was their exile, the partition, not also their opportunity?

But when the punishment is excessive or too convenient for the punisher, then the parent becomes immoral...their love is shown to be corrupted...also this is a conditional love. Who, then, is so perfect that they can lay claim to being able to provide unconditional love?

 

[Mox]

I believe IF you can create a thing, you can destroy a thing.

Why?

Because you can?

 

[sealchan]

There are two types of parent, let's say, a mother and a father type irrespective of that parents sexual identification. The father lays out rules for a disciplined life and requires respect and deference to his authority. The mother expects cooperation and corrects you if your not thinking of others. She wants her children to negotiate with others and become caring responsible people.

These two types of parents help to curb the excesses of each other. Too much authority breeds sneaky bullies. Too much caring and you have a perpetual need for others to address your concerns. Balance is key.

Is God both a perfect Mother and Father that He/She shows a balanced unconditional love? Or is He the raging authoritarian capable at any time of utter destruction of His creation. The Bible suggests the latter.

 

[Mox]

These two types of parents help to curb the excesses of each other. Too much authority breeds sneaky bullies. Too much caring and you have a perpetual need for others to address your concerns. Balance is key.

My father was a very tyrannical man, a far right nationalist who would brook no argument, pitiless and merciless, my father believed the way to raise men was to discipline them like soldiers. To use the iron fist at every opportunity. My mother is a different person, however she was dependent on alcohol for a very long time and was essentially absent from my childhood. I raised myself.

When it comes to my children, I looked at my father and mother, and vowed to be nothing like either.

 

[sealchan]

My father was a very tyrannical man, a far right nationalist who would brook no argument, pitiless and merciless, my father believed the way to raise men was to discipline them like soldiers. To use the iron fist at every opportunity. My mother is a different person, however she was dependent on alcohol for a very long time and was essentially absent from my childhood. I raised myself.

When it comes to my children, I looked at my father and mother, and vowed to be nothing like either.

I'm glad to know that you have emerged out of such a hard beginning. My wife has a similar story.

 

[Mox]

I'm glad to know that you have emerged out of such a hard beginning. My wife has a similar story.

I can't say it hasnt marked me. We are but the products of our nurture, to a degree.

I don't hate my father or anything, he is dead now.

Possibly, when he died alone in hospital, he may have regretted his actions. I don't know, I refused to visit him. It is sad, it is regrettable, but such is life.