Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[LuisDantas]

Let me ask you one thing, @paarsurrey .

What do you understand to be idolatry?

How and why are reverence towards the Qur'an and worship of Allah known not to be idolatry themselves?

If it is a matter of personal preference, fine, but I think that in so doing one empties the word "idolatry" of any actual meaning.

And if it is not just personal preference, then how can one tell whether something is idolatry as opposed to proper worship or reverence?

 

[paarsurrey]

I agree that it’s a huge challenge. You can’t just take a few verses out that you like. It requires an understanding of text as a whole, deep reflection on key themes, reading some commentary, and learning the relevant history. I’ve been studying Islam for the last few months. It’s slow going but I’m feeling slightly more adept.

The Bhagavad Gita is about 700 verses and I’ve read some of it before. I can’t see how I can really improve my understanding of Hinduism without doing some serious study.

"I’ve been studying Islam for the last few months"

I appreciate it, please.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

LOL, I love it when what someone has written sends me to the Dictionary. Just talking here. I think that when it is all said and done, there will be only one religion. Yahweh, was pretty clear that HE was the ONE GOD. After that, there may be more freedom than we fear. Right now we have seen what God said to Moses, but at times there seems to be other forces at work. Is that our "sin nature", or satan, or what? Is God vying for us with another force?

At the end of civilization on this Earth, we will know the truth. "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known". 1 Cor 13:12

I am convinced that we can refer to almost any book where we find the truth. It is why I use the Bible and Quran as a reference. I don't know much about the rest but am learning in the time remaining.

"I am convinced that we can refer to almost any book where we find the truth. It is why I use the Bible and Quran as a reference. I don't know much about the rest but am learning in the time remaining."

It is appreciable.

Regards

 

[Ellen Brown]

"I am convinced that we can refer to almost any book where we find the truth. It is why I use the Bible and Quran as a reference. I don't know much about the rest but am learning in the time remaining."

It is appreciable.

Regards

Yes, in light of what I have seen, that seems best.

 

[paarsurrey]

You have been to India. Is India the kind of country where Hindus persecute other beliefs? Are not people of various faiths living here in peace, even those who have cut-throat interaction in other countries (the Sunnis and Shias). Bahais got 10.5 hectares of prime land practically free of cost.
"92000 Square Metres of land in Delhi was purchased merely for Rupees 140,289."
https://www.quora.com/The-Lotus-Temple-in-Delhi-belongs-to-which-religion-or-faith
i.e., Rupee 1.5/Sq. mts or USD 0.002/Sq. mts in the heart of Delhi, where the land price is not less than Rs. 15,000/Sq. Ft. It is practically a scam.
Rupee 1,500,000,000 land given for Rs. 140,000 by the Congress government.
Land worth 1.5 billion rupees given for 140,000 rupees. (Land worth 21.5 million USD given for 2,000 USD)

If even then, Bahais claim to be persecuted in in India, it is quite ungrateful of them.

"Bahais got 10.5 hectares of prime land practically free of cost."

It is appreciable.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

"I’ve been studying Islam for the last few months"

I appreciate it, please.
Regards

It’s good to acknowledge what we don’t know. It better enables us to learn.

 

[paarsurrey]

Trying to find the post would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Baha’is believe Bahá’u’lláh was a man. Divinity may be relevant when God speaks through a manifestation in the same manner as the sun is reflected in the mirror. However the mirror is not the sun. Similarly the extent of divine attributes such as love and compassion that we all possess could be considered Godly.

Does one mean that Baha'ullah did not claim to be God, really?

It would be similar to Jesus who did not claim to be God literally but Pauline Christianity mad him one.

Regards

__________
Quran
[5:74]
They are surely disbelievers who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no God but the One God. And if they do not desist from what they say, a grievous punishment shall surely befall those of them that disbelieve.
[[5:75]
Will they not then turn to Allah and beg His forgiveness, while Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful?
[[5:76]
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 5: Al-Ma'idah

 

[paarsurrey]

I’ve never heard any Baha’i make such a preposterous claim. It is God who has existed through all eternity and Manifested or Incarnated Himself through Krishna.

"It is God who has existed through all eternity"

Sure enough for G-d.

Baha'ullah did not exist through all eternity. Right, please?
Regards

 

[oldbadger]

Let me ask you one thing, @paarsurrey .

What do you understand to be idolatry?

How and why are reverence towards the Qur'an and worship of Allah known not to be idolatry themselves?

If it is a matter of personal preference, fine, but I think that in so doing one empties the word "idolatry" of any actual meaning.

And if it is not just personal preference, then how can one tell whether something is idolatry as opposed to proper worship or reverence?

Hi......
Question:-
Surely 'Idolatry' requires the presence of a tangible 'Idol'?

For instance, I would perceive the Christian cross as a symbol rather than an idol. ..... so Abrahamic religions might not fit in to the area of idolatry?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"It is God who has existed through all eternity"

Sure enough for G-d.

Baha'ullah did not exist through all eternity. Right, please?
Regards

The way I see it is G_d is above all Names.

Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah are Names of God, they are the rays from the Sun.

We can only know God by knowing the Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

"It is God who has existed through all eternity"

Sure enough for G-d.

Baha'ullah did not exist through all eternity. Right, please?
Regards

Bahá’u’lláh was born in 1817 and passed away 1892.

Baha’is believe the soul comes into existence at conception and continues through the world of God for eternity.

In answer to your question, we don’t believe Bahá’u’lláh to have been in any existence prior to 1817, nor do we believe Jesus to have been in existence for all eternity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahá’u’lláh was born in 1817 and passed away 1892.

Baha’is believe the soul comes into existence at conception and continues through the world of God for eternity.

In answer to your question, we don’t believe Bahá’u’lláh to have been in any existence prior to 1817, nor do we believe Jesus to have been in existence for all eternity.

I would word that differently.

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí was born in 1817 and passed away 1892.

The Glory of God and Christ are Eternal.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would word that differently.

Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí was born in 1817 and passed away 1892.

The Glory of God and Christ are Eternal.

Regards Tony

I’m aware of what you mean. We could also argue the reality of man is eternal too and therefore we have all existed throughout eternity. But then it becomes a metaphysical argument that confuses the answer to a simple question.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam is a literate community, one who enters into it they definitely improve themselves in education, please.

Regards

Probably true, yes. I don't know how much the Ahmadiya community proselytizes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’m aware of what you mean. We could also argue the reality of man is eternal too and therefore we have all existed throughout eternity. But then it becomes a metaphysical argument that confuses the answer to a simple question.

Yes I do see that. It is my black and white view of life. it is I that needs that clarity

I see It was Muhammads Message that first offered that clarity to the Christains.

The metaphysical aspect is a minefield.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Now, I think that creates a problem for Allah's people - whom to follow? Should they follow the older one - Bahaullah, or the younger one - Mirza Ghaulam Ahmad, the manifestation or the mahdi? Did Bahaullah clarify the situation? I suppose both the Mirzas must have heard of each other. Allah too seems to be intent on creating confusion.

"Mirza Ghaulam Ahmad"

I believe there is no problem.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 did not claim to be G-d, for sure. He is a successor/Caliph/Mahdi and Promised Messiah as per the prophecies of Muhammad. He has brought no new Law and is a follower of Muhammad and his Law Quran and Sun-nah of Muhammad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was in direct converse of G-d and in this meaning was a prophet/messenger of G-d.
I don't see any problem in it. Right, please?
Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi......
Question:-
Surely 'Idolatry' requires the presence of a tangible 'Idol'?

For instance, I would perceive the Christian cross as a symbol rather than an idol. ..... so Abrahamic religions might not fit in to the area of idolatry?

How tangible is tangible enough for idolatry?

It seems to me that in this field there is no particular difference between the idea of, say, a divine prophet and an actual physical object.

Also, and I may have failed to point it out originally, I have reason to believe that Islaam does not really differentiate between idolatry and other concepts such as paganism, polytheism and trinitarianism. Probably ancestor worship as well.

 

[paarsurrey]

How come Allah sent a manifestation (Bahaullah,1817 – 1892) and a Mahdi (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, 1835 – 1908), so close to each other in time?
Moreover, Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri Bahá'u'lláh gave the Title "King of the Messengers" (sultán al-rusul) to the Báb, and the "Sender of the Messengers" (mursil al-rusul) to himself. Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia
Bahaullah's younger brother was Mirza Yahya, Subh-i-Azal, whom Bab appointed as the leader of his flock, but Bahaullah usurped the leadership.

Ah, Allah does not send the messengers, Bahaullah does.

"Ah, Allah does not send the messengers, Bahaullah does."

It is like G-d does not send the messengers, Jesus sends Paul of the Pauline Christianity.!?
Right, please?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

OK. You're an atheist who hates monotheists. I'm a theist who loves atheists. What more is there to say.

In regards creationism the Baha'i Teachings are clear:

There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks)

Therefore Baha'is don't believe in creationism or taking literally stories such as Adam and Eve in the Bible.

I am also one believer who belonging to Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam hates nobody.

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

Paarsurrey, I liked this stance.

Ahmadiyya view on Jihad - Wikipedia