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Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
How tangible is tangible enough for idolatry?
....an actual object or image, such as, for instance, a great golden bull?
Even in the world of popular music the fans can actually see and/or recall the image of a singing star, a 'pop-idol'.

It seems to me that in this field there is no particular difference between the idea of, say, a divine prophet and an actual physical object.
But you didn't use the word 'idol' in the above sentence, so that's OK. A Prophet of, for or from God could be perceived as Divine, but as a Deist I perceive everything as of, for or from God....... I just don't think of my Deity as an idol..... all a bit too big to fit into this World, let alone some temple or other.

Also, and I may have failed to point it out originally, I have reason to believe that Islaam does not really differentiate between idolatry and other concepts such as paganism, polytheism and trinitarianism. Probably ancestor worship as well.
I don't know about Islam but I expect that a Muslim might be very very offended if you were to suggest that Allah is an idol. Allah is the inconceivable, I expect, much as Apostle John's God is beyond our imagination or understanding.

You cannot make an idol of a Deity (Theity?) so vast that it's beyond the imagination...... there has to be an image.

What d'ya think?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I don't know about Islam but I expect that a Muslim might be very very offended if you were to suggest that Allah is an idol. Allah is the inconceivable, I expect, much as Apostle John's God is beyond our imagination or understanding.

You cannot make an idol of a Deity (Theity?) so vast that it's beyond the imagination...... there has to be an image.
Who is talking of Muslims and other monotheists? For Hindu theists (I am a Hindu atheist), even the smallest object is the whole of the deity (Brahman or any other), like you can change the dimensions of an image. How does being large or small matter? Must the image of Jesus be large only? Will a small image of Jesus in any way effect the supposed divinity of Jesus? The infinity of the deity is very much indicated in the following famous verse from Upanishads:

"Purnamadah, Punamidam, Purnat Purnmudacyate; Purnasya Purnamadaya, Purnameva avashishyate."
(That is whole, This is whole, from That whole arises This whole; if from That whole, a whole is deducted, what remains will still be whole)
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
We could make exactly the same case for the Baha’i Faith being that same reform movement the Ahmadiyyas claim to be.

Let’s agree that reform within Islam is needed and time will tell if either our Faiths achieve that reform.
Whether it is Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, LDS, Bahai or Ahmadiyyas; they all are very similar claims and without proof - "My view is better than all the previous ones. I have the authority from God".
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
....an actual object or image, such as, for instance, a great golden bull?
Even in the world of popular music the fans can actually see and/or recall the image of a singing star, a 'pop-idol'.


But you didn't use the word 'idol' in the above sentence, so that's OK. A Prophet of, for or from God could be perceived as Divine, but as a Deist I perceive everything as of, for or from God....... I just don't think of my Deity as an idol..... all a bit too big to fit into this World, let alone some temple or other.

To me, idolatry is simply a pejorative term for what would otherwise be called theism. A god-conception is only a mental image. It is no less proper a subject for idolatry than a solid statue would be. And it is certainly no less suitable for dangerous misguidance either, as best illustrated by Islaam itself.

There is no objective way to tell the concepts of theism and idolatry apart from each other. It is all in the intent and arbitrary decision of the person deciding to use one word over the other. Idolatry is not supposed to earn sympathy, while theism is. That is the entirety of their differentiation.


I don't know about Islam but I expect that a Muslim might be very very offended if you were to suggest that Allah is an idol.

Probably. I have given up on caring about what might offend Muslims, though. There is not much of a real point on worrying about that, and such has been the case for 1400 years or so.

Even Muhammad himself basically said during his last hours of life that he expected Muslims to be lost in mutual disapproval unless specifically told what to believe in. And that has been proven quite correct, very consistently and depressingly at that.

Hadith of the pen and paper - Wikipedia

That is exactly as self-defeating a situation as it seems to be, and IMO amounts to admission from the prophet himself that reform was already a dire need during his lifetime.

That comes as no surprise whatsoever, since their doctrine is based in taking offense over people who might disagree with them, and that responsibility is self-imposed and theirs to resolve.

I can hardly accept the responsiblity for the flaws of Islaam the doctrine. I never expected nor encouraged anyone to take the Qur'an as some form of scripture - a role which it performs only with considerable difficulty and serious problems. It is just too twisted, too reliant on monotheism for the sake of monotheism. It just can't hold its own weight, and never did.

Allah is the inconceivable, I expect, much as Apostle John's God is beyond our imagination or understanding.

You cannot make an idol of a Deity (Theity?) so vast that it's beyond the imagination...... there has to be an image.

What d'ya think?

I think that idolatry is a very tricky concept, and perhaps not at all extant outside of the eye of the beholder. The very intent to practice belief in a deity (theism) creates, as you well point out, a mental image that is unavoidably constrained by the limitations of a human mind.

Theism, far as I am personally concerned, is one and the same thing as idolatry. But that only means that I am a pure atheist, and I do not expect people to "repent" from theism simply because that would make my life simpler and more efficient.

People who think of idolatry as something to be avoided or corrected have a consequent duty to clearly define it - and I don't think that they can do that without presuming to have authority over other people's beliefs. Which is an arrogant presumption for anyone to have, of course.

That is quite the self-imposed problem for Islaam, and to a very lesser degree Christianity.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Sorry, I don't agree with one here.
People cannot and should not judge the Word of G-d. G-d has not only provided the text/words of Quran for guidance but also the wisdom/reasons/arguments in brief with it for discerning the Truth.
By people do you mean only the people who belong to the religion associated with a certain scripture or as you call it "Word of G*d"?

Or do you mean that all people on this planet should not judge any sacred scripture that was produced on this earth?
So e.g. is in your eyes a christian allowed to judge the Quaran or a muslim allowed to judge the Veda's or a tantric-yogi allowed to judge all of the sacred scriptures?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Who is talking of Muslims and other monotheists?
We were...... Luis and I.....

For Hindu theists (I am a Hindu atheist), even the smallest object is the whole of the deity (Brahman or any other), like you can change the dimensions of an imgae. How does being large or small matter?
It doesn't, but we were talking about 'idols'. As a Deist I perceive everything as a part of my Deity, but not the whole Deity. I suspect that even the entire Universe is nowhere near the whole Deity.

Must the image of Jesus be large only? Will a small image of Jesus in any way effect the supposed divinity of Jesus?
Ah! Not all Christians perceive Jesus as a God. IMO the more realistic Christians perceive him as a prophet or messenger.
Maybe that does separate the Creeds? The Trinitarians might be perceived as steeped in idolatry (the image of Jesus or crosses) but the Unitarians not steeped in idolatry because they only recognise God, Jehovah as the God 'which surpasses all understanding'. Hence no image, no idol?

The infinity of the deity is very much indicated in the following famous verse from Upanishads:

"Purnamadah, Punamidam, Purnat Purnmudacyate; Purnasya Purnamadaya, Purnameva avashishyate."
(That is whole, This is whole, from That whole arises This whole; if from That whole, a whole is deducted, what remains will still be whole)
Thankyou for that.

You might read in wonder at an Oldbadger verse?
The Deity is all of everythingness, and all of nothingness, together or separated, it does not matter.

Translate that into the right foreign language and it might hold attention and thought endlessly.... :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You might read in wonder at an Oldbadger verse?
The Deity is all of everythingness, and all of nothingness, together or separated, it does not matter.
Translate that into the right foreign language and it might hold attention and thought endlessly...? :D

We already have a 3,000 year old version of Oldbadger's verse in a book no less than RigVeda:
"sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛdi pratīṣyākavayo manīṣā ll"
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. :D

It also says:
"Arvāg devā asya visarjanenāthā ko veda yata ābabhūva ll"
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being? :D
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
If a land valued at USD 21.5 million is given away for USD 2,000, what would you term it as? It was a scam. See my post: Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.. It includes the link.

Quora is hardly authoritative but it appears that land wasn't gifted at all but sold. I'd understood the land to be considered of low quality with location, soil quality etc and that's why the price was relatively low. Obviously its become prime real estate now the temple is there.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If a land valued at USD 21.5 million is given away for USD 2,000, what would you term it as? It was a scam. See my post: Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.. It includes the link.

This 26 acres of land was purchased in 1953

The major funds for purchasing the land where the temple is built was donated by Ardishír Rustampúr, a man who reportedly gave his entire savings for this purpose in 1953. Without any sort of grant from the Government

This is the story since it needs to be told accurately;

"One of the most poignant stories we have about the Funds tells of how the land for the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar (House of Worship) of India was bought. The Guardian had given his approval for the purchase of a piece of land on the outskirts of Delhi which was composed of one large plot and four much smaller ones, amounting to a total of about twenty-two and a half acres. This was in 1953 when there were not many Bahá’ís in that part of the world and the sum of Rs.(Indian Rupees) 140,289 (CAD $28,000, as of 1960’s exchange rate), which was needed for the purchase of the five plots, was a considerable amount of money. The National Spiritual Assembly allotted a portion of this sum to each area under its jurisdiction, and the members set out to visit the friends in different places, explain to them the importance of the Temple, and encourage them to contribute towards the purchase of the land. Two of the members of the Assembly arrived one day at the modest restaurant of Ardishír Rustampúr in Hyderabad. Ardishír had left his native village in Iran when he was only ten years old, to seek his fortune in India. Besides the clothes he wore at the time, he had the equivalent of $1.00 in his pocket and a few pieces of dry bread. He arrived in Bombay after a difficult journey and, as he was a Zoroastrian himself, he found a job in the restaurant of a Zoroastrian from Iran. He worked hard and saved every Paise (700 Paise = $1) he earned, dreaming of the day when he could have a restaurant of his own. Many years later, he finally managed to open a modest restaurant in Hyderabad, where he also learned about the Bahá’í Faith. Ardishír lost his heart to Bahá’u’lláh and longed to serve Him with an ardour as fervent as he had felt when he yearned for a business of his own.

So this was the man at whose place the two members of the National Assembly found themselves in Hyderabad. From them Ardishír came to know about the land that was to be bought for the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar (House of Worship) and the amount of money needed. Then he asked his guests to wait for him while he went to attend to an urgent matter. When he came back he placed before them his entire capital—in cash. He had drawn from his bank all the money he had saved in his life, plus whatever cash he had in his till which he had not yet counted. The total amount was Rs. (Indian Rupees) 100,190. The two visitors were astounded by this extraordinary response to their appeal. Their discreet inquiries revealed that Ardishír had not kept a single rupee for himself. “How will you manage your business?” they asked. “This money is not mine”, Ardishír replied. ” It was given to me by Bahá’u’lláh and I have been keeping it in trust. I am happy I can give it back to Him now. If it pleases Him, He will again give me what I need.” It was useless to argue with him, but his two friends begged him to keep at least Rs. 190 for his immediate needs. The magnanimous gift of Rs. (Indian Rupees) 100,000 paid for the total cost of the first, and by far the largest, of the five plots of land for the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar (House of Worship). Only a little over Rs. (Indian Rupees) 40,000 was now needed for the other four plots. Ardishír had seen the opportunity of a lifetime and had seized it without the least hesitation. It seemed as though he had struggled and saved all these years to be able to lay a worthy offering at the feet of his Lord. And this is why the name of Ardishír Rustampúr will continue to inspire all who hear of how the land for the Temple in India was bought.'

Regards Tony
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That is true, though communities ultimately need to change too.

Interestingly the plans outlined in the Baha’i writings we call the lesser plan of God. The processes in the wider community as you have alluded we call the greater plan of God.

Plans - Gods
Yes I know. I've been 'studying' you guys for awhile. I don't find the naming of God's plan, according to Baha'i, interesting at all. Just more words without action. In Hinduism, it is more just that God is, and we;re not concerned with some plan.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
To me, idolatry is simply a pejorative term for what would otherwise be called theism.
Thankyou for the whole post.
I acknowledge all of your opinions, and because I am not a theist I don't feel strongly one way or t'other.
But I'll bet that Bahais, Muslims and Unitarian Christians might.... :D

A god-conception is only a mental image. It is no less proper a subject for idolatry than a solid statue would be. And it is certainly no less suitable for dangerous misguidance either, as best illustrated by Islaam itself.
OK.......... but we could place many other kinds of humans into the idol-worship box if the above is true. Atheists have their idols, and quite as dangerous for misguidance, also graspable, tangible and desirable, such as mammon, status, power, etc. Now there is some real idol worship, right there.

There is no objective way to tell the concepts of theism and idolatry apart from each other. It is all in the intent and arbitrary decision of the person deciding to use one word over the other. Idolatry is not supposed to earn sympathy, while theism is. That is the entirety of their differentiation.
Sympathy for Theism? Fashions change, and so do taboos, and just now I reckon that a small group of folks following some idol cult might receive more interest and sympathy than many Christian or Islamic denominations.

Probably. I have given up on caring about what might offend Muslims, though. There is not much of a real point on worrying about that, and such has been the case for 1400 years or so.
I tell you straight, despite all the adverse incidents and reports from over the last couple of decades I don't feel strongly anti-Islam, quite like the Muslims that I have known, but most of those were westernised and just wanted a bit of street cred, some decent gear to wear, a smart motor and a nice girlfriend..... semi-secular, I suppose.

Even Muhammad himself basically said during his last hours of life that he expected Muslims to be lost in mutual disapproval unless specifically told what to believe in. And that has been proven quite correct, very consistently and depressingly at that.

Hadith of the pen and paper - Wikipedia

That is exactly as self-defeating a situation as it seems to be, and IMO amounts to admission from the prophet himself that reform was already a dire need during his lifetime.
Fair enough. I didn't know that.

That comes as no surprise whatsoever, since their doctrine is based in taking offense over people who might disagree with them, and that responsibility is self-imposed and theirs to resolve.

I can hardly accept the responsiblity for the flaws of Islaam the doctrine. I never expected nor encouraged anyone to take the Qur'an as some form of scripture - a role which it performs only with considerable difficulty and serious problems. It is just too twisted, too reliant on monotheism for the sake of monotheism. It just can't hold its own weight, and never did.
I can't really do more than listen to your view about the above...... honestly haven't thought enough about Islam to feel very strongly, or with any qualification.

But..... Did Muhammad wish that his features (picture) would not be shown everywhere? Bahai's Bahauallah certainly didn't want his picture bandied about. The Jehovah Witnesses have nothing within their Kingdom Halls, no crosses, figures, lumps of rock or anything else. And in these examples (if the Islamic one is true) we can see that these religions did not want followers to focus upon individuals as idols.

Maybe those beautiful Mosques and definitely the Bahai Temples might be seen as idols..... the Bahai ones get featured heavily with much pride?

But the JWs...... nothing.


I think that idolatry is a very tricky concept, and perhaps not at all extant outside of the eye of the beholder. The very intent to practice belief in a deity (theism) creates, as you well point out, a mental image that is unavoidably constrained by the limitations of a human mind.

Theism, far as I am personally concerned, is one and the same thing as idolatry. But that only means that I am a pure atheist, and I do not expect people to "repent" from theism simply because that would make my life simpler and more efficient.
I don't think that your life would be more simple without Theism, just less colourful. An atheistic World could be one of natural evolution, and that could be terrifying...... survival of the fittest. Yuck.

People who think of idolatry as something to be avoided or corrected have a consequent duty to clearly define it - and I don't think that they can do that without presuming to have authority over other people's beliefs. Which is an arrogant presumption for anyone to have, of course.
Well, each person can define idolatry for themselves, or explain their group's opinion about it..... that's alright.

As a Deist I don't idolise all that is and is not, it just is........ if I idolise at all then I am just crazy about my wife.... honest. Mad about her. Bonkers. But I never thought of her as an idol, although I keep her image in my wallet and mobile phone....... wow..... :shrug:

That is quite the self-imposed problem for Islaam, and to a very lesser degree Christianity.
I reckon that Christianity has just as many probs as Islam in this area, idols.... in fact Islam might even be more straight, more true to itself...... Christianity cherry-picks as it pleases to suit the occasion, it seems to me.

Now ancient religions are resurfacing in the West, I notice, and they can be honestly openly filled with idolatry and they seem to be attracting favourable attention?

In any case, religion is taking such a battering at this time that you must feel slightly less irritated by it all than ever before.... ?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In any case, religion is taking such a battering at this time that you must feel slightly less irritated by it all than ever before.... ?
I am no opponent of religion.

I do value it. It is theism that I want to see carefully monitored and sufficiently defended against.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes I know. I've been 'studying' you guys for awhile. I don't find the naming of God's plan, according to Baha'i, interesting at all. Just more words without action. In Hinduism, it is more just that God is, and we;re not concerned with some plan.
I noted your comments about Baha’is alleged lack of ‘action’ earlier in the thread. It’s not true at all. Baha’i’s are involved with charity and socioeconomic development at all levels.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Quora is hardly authoritative but it appears that land wasn't gifted at all but sold. I'd understood the land to be considered of low quality with location, soil quality etc and that's why the price was relatively low. Obviously its become prime real estate now the temple is there.
It is right in the middle of posh South Delhi.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Bahai temple.jpg
This 26 acres of land was purchased in 1953.
Even in 1953, South Delhi land was not this cheap. I have been coming to Delhi for all my life before settling down here for good 47 years ago. It was a gift from an anti-Hindu government to Bahais.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It is right in the middle of posh South Delhi.
When in Australia not too long ago, there were pictures of the temple throughout Sydney airport. It’s obviously become a major tourist destination for many considering travelling to India.

I know a few Indian Baha’is including those who have served at the temple.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes, for those who come to Delhi, it is one of the places to go. We have many historical monuments in Delhi and many places of worship. Birla Temple, Chhatarpur Devi temple, Swaminarayan temple, Jamia mosque, etc. A few old churches too. Most tourists in this area are interested in what we call the 'Golden Triangle', Jaipur, Delhi, Agra. Otherwise, they head to Haridwar or Varanasi.
 
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