Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[paarsurrey]

Bahais are unwanted intruders in all religions. They don't accept Jesus as son of God and don't accept Mohammad as Nabi-ul-Khatm. In Hinduism they consider Krishna as a messenger of God which we think he was not, and in Buddhism they give the same option to Buddha whereas Buddha never talked about the existence of God.That is very strange. Did not the all-knowing Allah or his manifestation explain it to you? You are definitely strange people.

"Bahais are unwanted intruders in all religions."

They have a right to believe and propogate anything with or without evidence/reason/argument as do the Atheism people. Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

"Bahais are unwanted intruders in all religions."

They have a right to believe and propogate anything with or without evidence/reason/argument as do the Atheism people. Right, please?

Regards

Again, those are two quite dissimilar situations.

The Bahai Faith is an actual religion, with a doctrine and expectations.

Atheism... is not.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey, I liked this stance.

Ahmadiyya view on Jihad - Wikipedia

I appreciate one's liking.
For more study one may like to view the following Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam's official website:
Islam Ahmadiyya - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - Al Islam Online - Official Website
No compulsion however, please/

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

I appreciate one's liking.
For more study one may like to view the following Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam's official website:
Islam Ahmadiyya - Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - Al Islam Online - Official Website
No compulsion however, please/

Regards

No thanks, Paar. The fact that the Ahmadiyas have a history of non-violence speaks volumes. Of course, all the other basic premises of Islam, I could never believe in. It makes no sense to me.

 

[paarsurrey]

What stands out for me is how many people in the world follow either Christianity or Islam. It is enormous and judging by predicted trends, these two Abrahamic Faiths are set to be the religions followed by two thirds of the worlds inhabitants by the end of this century.

Modernity has certainly caused a decline in Christianity where I live as the numbers of agnostics/atheists/don't knows/don't cares are set to eclipse the number of Christians. Then again, our population isn't growing except by immigration, and so we are seeing rapidly rising numbers of Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists. We need to be more adept at diversity and multiculturalism. If we achieve this, then our lives have the potential to be greatly enriched.

The world wide trend for Hindus and Buddhists is continued decline in overall proportion of the world population and combined they will make up less than 20% of the population by 2060.



My wife's mother is from Japan and so from a Buddhist/Shinto background. I see many similarities between the values of Japan and New Zealand where I live. There are significant differences for certain, but much more similarities IMHO. I'm sure this topic of comparing the Dharmic Faiths to Abrahamics has done the rounds on RF. Its off topic in regards the OP for now.

I've had many conversations of the JWs here. I'm from a Christian background so know the bible reasonably well which helps to understand where they are coming from.



So back to the OP.

Does Islam need reform? I think your answer is definitely.

Is Islam too far gone and incapable of reforming itself? I suspect your answer to the that question is a resounding yes.

Is the Baha'i Faith a reform movement within Islam? I've already answered that question with my first post in this thread. I don't know how it plays out in Muslim countries other than there are amazing Baha'is that continue to practice their faith despite hostility from conservative and fanatical Muslims. I don't see the Baha'is trying to reform Islam but to be good citizens of their respective countries and provide a new vision of faith that incorporates both Baha'u'llah's revelation and Muhammad's. That's not easy. In the West, its the same conversation but with Christians and atheists. We generally say little about Islam because we're not Muslims and nor are our fellow citizens. Same deal in the East with Buddhists and Hindus.

"Does Islam need reform? I think your answer is definitely.
Is Islam too far gone and incapable of reforming itself? I suspect your answer to the that question is a resounding yes."

Islam has an inbuilt system of reformation*, which has been in action with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi 1835-1908.
Islam needs no new religion after Muhammad for reformation, please.

Regards
_____________
*Quran, gives system of reformation after Muhammad:
[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, andthey will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
[24:57]
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur

 

[paarsurrey]

No thanks, Paar. The fact that the Ahmadiyas have a history of non-violence speaks volumes. Of course, all the other basic premises of Islam, I could never believe in. It makes no sense to me.

It is just OK. I had not read the whole article in the Wikipedia. You are friend, if you don't mind, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I do not know much about Islam nor about its reform movements.
But I heard very positive things about mystic Islam, called Sufism.
What is the need for those two reform movements if you already have Sufism?
Do they add anything essential for better spiritual progress that Sufism didn't already add?

"I do not know much about Islam nor about its reform movements."

One may like to read my post #265 for the inbuilt reformation system of Islam, please.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

"Does Islam need reform? I think your answer is definitely.
Is Islam too far gone and incapable of reforming itself? I suspect your answer to the that question is a resounding yes."

Islam has an inbuilt system of reformation*, which has been in action with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi 1835-1908.
Islam needs no new religion after Muhammad for reformation, please.

Regards
_____________
*Quran, gives system of reformation after Muhammad:
[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, andthey will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
[24:57]
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur

We could make exactly the same case for the Baha’i Faith being that same reform movement the Ahmadiyyas claim to be.

Let’s agree that reform within Islam is needed and time will tell if either our Faiths achieve that reform.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If one have a right to enter into Atheism in absence of any evidence , the same way the believers of any religion have a right to believe in G-d (with or) without reason/argument, just on faith.

It is the absence of evidence that pushes people to atheism or disbelieve God, sons, prophets, messengers, manifestations and mahdis and take them as fake.

 

[Vinayaka]

Let’s agree that reform within Islam is needed and time will tell if either our Faiths achieve that reform.

Reform comes from within individuals, not from within groups. Millions of Muslims outside of these two movements who take on a path of peace have proven that.

The Ismaili Community

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Bahais got 10.5 hectares of prime land practically free of cost."
It is appreciable.

Doling out prime land is a scam and nothing appreciable about it. The money could have been used for poor people.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was in direct converse of G-d and in this meaning was a prophet/messenger of G-d.

Proof, Parsurrey, proof? Where is the proof of G-D/Allah, Quran, Mohammad, Bahaullah or Mirza? One after the other, all without proof.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Ah, Allah does not send the messengers, Bahaullah does."

It is like G-d does not send the messengers, Jesus sends Paul of the Pauline Christianity.!?

God, Jesus, Paul, Bhaullah and Mirza. All without proof. That is the story of Monotheism. One after the other, each accepting the earlier fake. Because if they reject any earlier fake, they will have to provide proof for themselves.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Bahais are unwanted intruders in all religions."

They have a right to believe and propogate anything with or without evidence/reason/argument as do the Atheism people. Right, please

When did atheist deny that. It is your boat. If you relish falsehood, you are welcome to it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Reform comes from within individuals, not from within groups. Millions of Muslims outside of these two movements who take on a path of peace have proven that.

The Ismaili Community

That is true, though communities ultimately need to change too.

Interestingly the plans outlined in the Baha’i writings we call the lesser plan of God. The processes in the wider community as you have alluded we call the greater plan of God.

Plans - Gods

 

[Dawnofhope]

Doling out prime land is a scam and nothing appreciable about it. The money could have been used for poor people.

The Baha’i Lotus Temple appears to have had a positive affect on the Indian economy where many including the poor have benefited.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Indian economy is a huge thing, the third largest by PPP and fifth/sixth largest (it may have overtaken UK economy by now) by nominal value. It is the fastest growing among the largest economies of the world. What is Lotus temple before it?

That tells you the story.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is the absence of evidence that pushes people to atheism or disbelieve God, sons, prophets, messengers, manifestations and mahdis and take them as fake.

That, and the varying degrees of recklessness and irresponsibility found so often with the claims of the existence of God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indian economy is a huge thing, the third largest by PPP and fifth/sixth largest (it may have overtaken UK economy by now) by nominal value. What is Lotus temple before it?

Successful modern economies have generally been based on open markets rather than narrow nationalistic concerns. I suppose that's a matter for your government to decide, how the economy is run and to what extent initiatives and investment from 'outsiders' are valued.

I hadn't heard the temple land was gifted to the Baha'i community. Do you have any links that provide some history around this from the perspective of the Indian/New Dehli government?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You need to understand economy. It is a Free Trade Wold. It is not that only foreigners are investing in India, Indians too are investing in foreign markets.

"Market size
India has emerged as one of the strongest performers in the deal-street across the world in mergers and acquisitions. M&A deal volume in India increased 14 per cent to 1,022 transactions, worth US$ 46.8 billion, in 2017.

According to the data provided by Reserve Bank of India (RBI), India’s outward Foreign Direct Investment (OFDI) in equity, loan and guaranteed issue stood at US$ 784.28 million in the month of February 2018 as against US$ 866 million in January 2018 and US$ 1.35 billion in February 2017."
Indian Investment Abroad - Overseas Direct Investment by Indian Companies

"Foreign direct investment in India increased to USD 61.96 billion in 2017-18, DIPP Secretary Ramesh Abhishek said today. FDI inflows stood at USD 60 billion in the previous fiscal. He also said during the four years of the Modi government, foreign inflows jumped to USD 222.75 billion from USD 152 billion in the previous four-year period."
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/64506567.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

It is a two-way flow. It is like that in Tourism also. If India is earning through Foreign Tourism, Indians also are spending an equivalent amount on Foreign Tours if not more. India has a very robust internal economy. Changes in Foreign Direct Investment will not affect Indian economy in a way they would in most other countries.