Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[siti]

Some of us already have abandoned it, and would congratulate the Quakers on their forward thinking on this issue. The faith could do with some liberalisation.

Amen to that!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Both Christianity and Islam played an enormous role contributing to the intellectual and moral development of Europe.

For Centuries, Christianity pushed civilization backwards refusing science. I see the effect of Islam in Muslim majority countries even today.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For Centuries, Christianity pushed civilization backwards refusing science. I see the effect of Islam in Muslim majority countries even today.

On the other hand science and knowledge flourished under the Abbasids for centuries. The Islamic Empire through expansion into Europe was arguably the most significant factor in Igniting the European Renaissance. Both the Catholics and Protestants then promoted great advances that were passed onto the rest of the world albeit through colonisation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

They were certainly present and influential at the time.

How would things have gone without them, how much better or worse it would have been and in which ways, is far less clear, although many people feel strongly on the subject matter anyway.

It’s hard to imagine a civilisation without religion and what that would be like. Most primitive cultures have started with some form of animism. A relatively small group of religions have superseded them. The movement from pagan beliefs to the likes of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam for me have unquestionably stimulated moral and intellectual development. Going from worshipping idols to the study of the Vedas or the Torah is a monumental shift.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I want to clearly say that I appreciate your honesty.

And I dearly hope that the Bahai Faith succeeds, soon if at all possible, in overcoming that aspect of its legacy. There is no shortage of people who would benefit from such success.

I was chatting to a Catholic colleague the other day. We’re both GPs. He lamented the loss of those who identified as gay from their congregations. It had me thinking about the Baha’is or any faith community and to what extent we engage and become friends with those who have differing outlooks.

 

[Marcion]

I do not know much about Islam nor about its reform movements.
But I heard very positive things about mystic Islam, called Sufism.
What is the need for those two reform movements if you already have Sufism?
Do they add anything essential for better spiritual progress that Sufism didn't already add?

 

[LuisDantas]

It’s hard to imagine a civilisation without religion and what that would be like.

True. But it is all too easy to imagine and be tantalized by a civilization that never took Abrahamic monotheism quite so seriously as Islaam or even Christianity!

Most religions are quite unlike them, and the potential differences are overwhelming.

Truth be told, proselitist monotheism is a very odd combination, and it did not do our world any good. One of these days I might purposefully expose myself to the local JW in order to try and learn why they feel differently.

Most primitive cultures have started with some form of animism. A relatively small group of religions have superseded them. The movement from pagan beliefs to the likes of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam for me have unquestionably stimulated moral and intellectual development. Going from worshipping idols to the study of the Vedas or the Torah is a monumental shift.

I just can't see a way to speak quite so easily of Christianity and particularly Islaam in the same breath as the others.

In a very real sense, Islaam is coming back to the worship of idols, after all. With a huge side dish of denial, no less. When I try to think of its constructive impact on the world, all that comes to me is that it may have helped in attaining peace in the Middle East. Then again, given its history, maybe it just made such peace seem impossible to attain.

I don't think I will ever again think of Islaam as a religion, let alone as a positive one.

 

[LuisDantas]

I do not know much about Islam nor about its reform movements.
But I heard very positive things about mystic Islam, called Sufism.
What is the need for those two reform movements if you already have Sufism?
Do they add anything essential for better spiritual progress that Sufism didn't already add?

Sufism requires an amount of study that just isn't very likely to be quite so widespread, although I would like to be proven wrong.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I do not know much about Islam nor about its reform movements.
But I heard very positive things about mystic Islam, called Sufism.
What is the need for those two reform movements if you already have Sufism?
Do they add anything essential for better spiritual progress that Sufism didn't already add?

Interesting questions and it would be helpful to hear some Muslim perspectives. My understanding is that Sufism is a way of approaching the study of Islam and its not really a sect. It’s also been around since the early days.

Existing in both Sunni and Shia Islam, Sufism is not a distinct sect, as is sometimes erroneously assumed, but a method of approaching or a way of understanding the religion, which strives to take the regular practice of the religion to the "supererogatory level" through simultaneously "fulfilling ... [the obligatory] religious duties"[5] and finding a "way and a means of striking a root through the 'narrow gate' in the depth of the soul out into the domain of the pure arid unimprisonable Spirit which itself opens out on to the Divinity."Academic studies of Sufism confirm that Sufism, as a separate tradition from Islam apart from so-called pure Islam, is frequently a product of Western orientalism and modern Islamic fundamentalists.

Sufism - Wikipedia

So can a mystical sect of Islam that has always been part of Islam from early on bring about change? Why not? If more Muslims practiced a more deeply reflective Faith that surely must be a step in the right direction. I wonder how the Muslims would feel about more of their fellow Muslims practising Sufism. First you would need to ask them if Islam really needed reform in the first place. I would suspect many would say ‘No’.

Let’s ask shall we? How about it @Mohsen ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

On the other hand science and knowledge flourished under the Abbasids for centuries. .. Both the Catholics and Protestants then promoted great advances that were passed onto the rest of the world albeit through colonisation.

Abbasids are long gone. Galileo suffered in prison. If there is scientific progress, it is in spite of Christianity and Islam. They still drum up creationism (I think Bahais too. Did Allah create Adam and Eve?) and some even flat Earth.

Belief in God is the real stone-age mentality. Then if you worship the idol or worship God without it, that hardly makes any difference. Ishavasya Upanishad says:

अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते l ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्या रताः ll
andhaṃ tamaḥ praviśanti ye'sambhūtimupāsate l tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u sambhūtyā ratāḥ ll

"They fall into blind darkness who worship the manifested and they fall into greater darkness who worship the unmanifested."

 

[Vinayaka]

I was chatting to a Catholic colleague the other day. We’re both GPs. He lamented the loss of those who identified as gay from their congregations. It had me thinking about the Baha’is or any faith community and to what extent we engage and become friends with those who have differing outlooks.

You're comparing being gay to having a different religious outlook? I don't see them the same at all. One is natural and genetic, while the other can be altered. Of course I already know that baha'i' believe gays can be cured.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sufism requires an amount of study that just isn't very likely to be quite so widespread, although I would like to be proven wrong.

And it's not really intellectual study, 'more sitting in a cave' study. My Guru sat with a deeper Sufi mystic in Sri Lanka many years ago. They meditated together, then compared notesn after, sharing insights.

 

[Dawnofhope]

True. But it is all too easy to imagine and be tantalized by a civilization that never took Abrahamic monotheism quite so seriously as Islaam or even Christianity!

Most religions are quite unlike them, and the potential differences are overwhelming.

Truth be told, proselitist monotheism is a very odd combination, and it did not do our world any good. One of these days I might purposefully expose myself to the local JW in order to try and learn why they feel differently.

What stands out for me is how many people in the world follow either Christianity or Islam. It is enormous and judging by predicted trends, these two Abrahamic Faiths are set to be the religions followed by two thirds of the worlds inhabitants by the end of this century.

Modernity has certainly caused a decline in Christianity where I live as the numbers of agnostics/atheists/don't knows/don't cares are set to eclipse the number of Christians. Then again, our population isn't growing except by immigration, and so we are seeing rapidly rising numbers of Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists. We need to be more adept at diversity and multiculturalism. If we achieve this, then our lives have the potential to be greatly enriched.

The world wide trend for Hindus and Buddhists is continued decline in overall proportion of the world population and combined they will make up less than 20% of the population by 2060.



My wife's mother is from Japan and so from a Buddhist/Shinto background. I see many similarities between the values of Japan and New Zealand where I live. There are significant differences for certain, but much more similarities IMHO. I'm sure this topic of comparing the Dharmic Faiths to Abrahamics has done the rounds on RF. Its off topic in regards the OP for now.

I've had many conversations of the JWs here. I'm from a Christian background so know the bible reasonably well which helps to understand where they are coming from.

I just can't see a way to speak quite so easily of Christianity and particularly Islaam in the same breath as the others.

In a very real sense, Islaam is coming back to the worship of idols, after all. With a huge side dish of denial, no less. When I try to think of its constructive impact on the world, all that comes to me is that it may have helped in attaining peace in the Middle East. Then again, given its history, maybe it just made such peace seem impossible to attain.

I don't think I will ever again think of Islaam as a religion, let alone as a positive one.

So back to the OP.

Does Islam need reform? I think your answer is definitely.

Is Islam too far gone and incapable of reforming itself? I suspect your answer to the that question is a resounding yes.

Is the Baha'i Faith a reform movement within Islam? I've already answered that question with my first post in this thread. I don't know how it plays out in Muslim countries other than there are amazing Baha'is that continue to practice their faith despite hostility from conservative and fanatical Muslims. I don't see the Baha'is trying to reform Islam but to be good citizens of their respective countries and provide a new vision of faith that incorporates both Baha'u'llah's revelation and Muhammad's. That's not easy. In the West, its the same conversation but with Christians and atheists. We generally say little about Islam because we're not Muslims and nor are our fellow citizens. Same deal in the East with Buddhists and Hindus.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You're comparing being gay to having a different religious outlook? I don't see them the same at all.

No I wasn't and I agree they are not the same.

One is natural and genetic, while the other can be altered. Of course I already know that baha'i' believe gays can be cured.

There are complex biological, genetic, and social factors that contribute to homosexuality. Those factors are not well understood. Clearly we can't cure homosexuality if its no longer defined as a medical condition and we don't properly understand its genesis.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't know how it plays out in Muslim countries other than there are amazing Baha'is that continue to practice their faith despite hostility from conservative and fanatical Muslims. I don't see the Baha'is trying to reform Islam but to be good citizens of their respective countries and provide a new vision of faith that incorporates both Baha'u'llah's revelation and Muhammad's. That's not easy. In the West, its the same conversation but with Christians and atheists. We generally say little about Islam because we're not Muslims and nor are our fellow citizens. Same deal in the East with Buddhists and Hindus.

Bahais are unwanted intruders in all religions. They don't accept Jesus as son of God and don't accept Mohammad as Nabi-ul-Khatm. In Hinduism they consider Krishna as a messenger of God which we think he was not, and in Buddhism they give the same option to Buddha whereas Buddha never talked about the existence of God.

Clearly we can't cure homosexuality if its no longer defined as a medical condition and we don't properly understand its genesis.

That is very strange. Did not the all-knowing Allah or his manifestation explain it to you? You are definitely strange people.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Abbasids are long gone. Galileo suffered in prison. If there is scientific progress, it is in spite of Christianity and Islam. They still drum up creationism (I think Bahais too. Did Allah create Adam and Eve?) and some even flat Earth.

Belief in God is the real stone-age mentality. Then if you worship the idol or worship God without it, that hardly makes any difference. Ishavasya Upanishad says:

अन्धं तमः प्रविशन्ति येऽसम्भूतिमुपासते l ततो भूय इव ते तमो य उ सम्भूत्या रताः ll
andhaṃ tamaḥ praviśanti ye'sambhūtimupāsate l tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u sambhūtyā ratāḥ ll

"They fall into blind darkness who worship the manifested and they fall into greater darkness who worship the unmanifested."

OK. You're an atheist who hates monotheists. I'm a theist who loves atheists. What more is there to say.

In regards creationism the Baha'i Teachings are clear:

There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks)

Therefore Baha'is don't believe in creationism or taking literally stories such as Adam and Eve in the Bible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

OK. You're an atheist who hates monotheists. I'm a theist who loves atheists. What more is there to say.

In regards creationism the Baha'i Teachings are clear: There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks)

Therefore Baha'is don't believe in creationism or taking literally stories such as Adam and Eve in the Bible.

More than monotheists, I hate pretenders. Give me one proof of the existence of God or Bahaullah's claim as a manifestion of God, or existence of soul or life after death.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Totally off topic of course but as you have presented false and misleading information about the Baha'i Teachings I will respond:

They don't accept Jesus as son of God .

You are confusing Islam for the Baha'is.

The Baha'i position:

'As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.
Shoghi Effendi.

don't accept Mohammad as Nabi-ul-Khatm. .

You mean the Khatam an-Nabiyyin?

We do believe in it, but have a less mainstream interpretation.

Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia

In Hinduism they consider Krishna as a messenger of God which we think he was not.

Messenger of God is Islam, not Baha'i.

Baha'is believe Krishna was a Manifestation of God, Hindus believe He was an incarnation of Vishnu (God).

Krishna - Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

in Buddhism they give the same option to Buddha whereas Buddha never talked about the existence of God.

There are many references to theism in Buddhism and many Buddhists are theists. As Hinduism had become overly concerned with abstruse metaphysical matters, Buddha took a more pragmatic approach to faith as exemplified in the parable of the broken arrow.

Parable of the Poisoned Arrow - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

More than monotheists, I hate pretenders. Give me one proof of the existence of God or Bahaullah's claim as a manifestion of God, or existence of soul or life after death.

“O SON OF DUST!

Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother.”
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

 

[Aupmanyav]

How come Allah sent a manifestation (Bahaullah,1817 – 1892) and a Mahdi (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, 1835 – 1908), so close to each other in time?

“O SON OF DUST! Verily I say unto thee: Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself over his brother.”(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

Moreover, Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri Bahá'u'lláh gave the Title "King of the Messengers" (sultán al-rusul) to the Báb, and the "Sender of the Messengers" (mursil al-rusul) to himself. Khatam an-Nabiyyin - Wikipedia
Bahaullah's younger brother was Mirza Yahya, Subh-i-Azal, whom Bab appointed as the leader of his flock, but Bahaullah usurped the leadership.

Ah, Allah does not send the messengers, Bahaullah does.