Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[oldbadger]

OTOH, I've never met a Bahai in person. They're scarce in these parts. So it's only the folks on here that represent their faith for me, and I must say it hasn't been very positive.

I have known some Bahais.
There have been very decent ones, but there were also some very materialistic, some very prejudiced and one serious criminal one.

On RF I have noticed some Bahai input which has told us on one hand about rises to success, shown large home, and yet insists on the other hand about humility and humble opinions. Plus pretty strong insults to Bahai critics.

No..... not positive.

 

[Ellen Brown]

To some extent it is in the eyes of the beholder. Still, I think it is fair to say that the split is indeed a very unconfortable reality for nearly all Muslims, and yes, it does harm Islaam's credibility to a significant extent. I tend not to worry about their understanding of Issa (Jesus, though). There are many matters of doctrine in the Qur'an that I find troubling, and Jesus is not really one of them.

AND, actually Sunni Islam's Quran has a whole "chapter" devoted to Jesus. For me, the most significant thing in it I find is when Allah SWT asks Jesus what he did here on Earth, and he says, "I did only what you commanded me to do".

So, attempting to critically examine the theology of Christianity, is difficult. Is it because I was Christian for a very long time and the ideas of Son-ship, Atonement, Original Sin and so forth are conditioned into me? In my experience, the willingness of pseudo Christians to judge and mistreat others is a major indictment against the validity of it. AND, of course I surely realize that Judaism and Islam are just as adept at judging and mistreatment. AND, that is why I worship the God of Abraham but struggle with the rest of it.

Most of the Doctrines in the church did not appear until well after the death of Jesus, and I doubt them. So, what is left? We have the admonishment to love God and each other. We have the sacrament. We know we are to love Justice and Mercy and walk humbly with God. Perhaps that is ALL we are to do? The rest of it is silliness of humans?

 

[Vinayaka]

No..... not positive.

Still, it has varied somewhat. It's relatively diverse given the narrowness of the faith. Mostly just non-religious personalities, geographical location, education, and the like, I think, that make each a bit unique.

 

[Vinayaka]

Nor did I mention the 20,000 Local and National Assembly’s upon which the Universal House of Justice is founded that have excellent representation of women. But I think you knew that.

Yes, no point rehashing old points. Our takes on chauvinism are probably similar. For me it's largely an unknown, and is very individualised. We aren't generally privy to what happens behind closed doors and how people actually relate there. I've seen very kind men in 'chauvinist' cultures, and angry men in pacifist cultures who should have known better. It often boils down to instinct, and emotional management. In public, people can put up very good fronts. So making generlised statements about cultures is of little practical use.

 

[oldbadger]

OTOH, I've never met a Bahai in person. They're scarce in these parts. So it's only the folks on here that represent their faith for me, and I must say it hasn't been very positive.

Both you yourself, @Aupmanyav and @siti are very very valuable acquaintances for Bahai, but Bahai probably won't ever recognise you as such....... If Bahai keeps lists of any kinds of enemies then some of us might even be on them!!!!

We all need good friends, of course, but good enemies can be far more valuable. Good friends will never tell us about our failures, drawbacks and negatives. But good enemies will, and it's from these offerings that we get the opportunities to recognise where we might need to change in various ways.

In my opinion, Bahai needs to change........ in various ways.

 

[Mohsen]

Having practiced Sunni Islam for almost 7 years, I can think of some ways that reform would do it good. Shia Islam is enough different in their practices around the Mahdi, and the Twelvers that I think in many ways they are not Muslim. As to the Sunni, there are Muslims who are "Quran Only". Despite Muhammad's detractors, he authored "The Constitution of Medina". In my opinion Islam ran off the rails when Abu Bakr took over after the death of Muhammad PBUH. Those close to Muhammad felt that he had chosen Ali. Many think that Abu Bakr murdered Ali, and so the 1400 years of war and hatred started.

Abu aAkr was dead many years before Ali became khaliph... between Abu Bakr and Ali were two more khaliphs. You can't do history. The rest of your post was subjective garbage.

 

[Vinayaka]

Both you yourself, @Aupmanyav and @siti are very very valuable acquaintances for Bahai, but Bahai probably won't ever recognise you as such....... If Bahai keeps lists of any kinds of enemies then some of us might even be on them!!!!

We all need good friends, of course, but good enemies can be far more valuable. Good friends will never tell us about our failures, drawbacks and negatives. But good enemies will, and it's from these offerings that we get the opportunities to recognise where we might need to change in various ways.

In my opinion, Bahai needs to change........ in various ways.

If not, I think it too shall pass. Another 50 years at most. Lots of once popular movements have died off. We simply can't stay living in the past and expect modern thinkers to come along. I do admire the Amish though.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Abu aAkr was dead many years before Ali became khaliph... between Abu Bakr and Ali were two more khaliphs. You can't do history. The rest of your post was subjective garbage.

In the Islamic community there are many stories. Yours is one.

 

[Estro Felino]

May you elaborate, please? What reform would that be, and around which time period?

Kemalism in Turkey, Ba'athism in the Arab world, etc...
Even if it dealt with political ideologies, they reformed religion as well- it was a kinda forced secularization.

 

[LuisDantas]

Somehow I don't think either was quite as succesfull as you seem to believe, @Estro Felino

To this day Turkey has a lot of problems with Islaam. Iraq ended up being a repressive regime.

And that is before considering the ethical implications of what you describe as forced secularization.

Edited to add: in any case, neither Baathism nor Kemalism were exactly dominating trends in Islaam as a whole, even if taken together. They will probably be forgotten long before Islaam itself does. Unfortunately.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see where you are coming from. But it is still very much a good thing that Muslims are starting to outgrown the tribalism of their doctrine.

Monotheist religions with prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations and mahdis cannot outgrow their tribalism.

.. you would have had your fair share of male chauvinists and still do. Women are often treated appallingly in all cultures, yours and mine included. Baha’is believe the equality of men and women is an essential prerequisite to world peace.

Yes, we had/have, but it is not something that merits a proud quote. Bahais are a recent phenomenon. God seems to have woken up to this fact only belatedly.

Nor did I mention the 20,000 Local and National Assembly’s upon which the Universal House of Justice is founded that have excellent representation of women. But I think you knew that.

Better answer Vinayaka's contention first.

 

[LuisDantas]

Aw, come on, Aup. You know that there are many Hindu monotheists. And there are the Sikhs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Beautiful post, @oldbadger.

@LuisDantas , Yeah, there are monotheists in Hinduism too, and they too are infested with the same virus as the other monotheist religions, take for example, the Hare-Krishnas. One God makes all behave like tribals.

In my opinion, Bahai needs to change........ in various ways.

How can they change? The latest manifestation of God had written hundreds of books on the inspiration of their God, and there won't be another for at least 800 years. Change means dumping the son, manifestation or mahdi and going against the instructions of their God. It takes away the very foundation of their faith.

Still, it has varied somewhat. It's relatively diverse given the narrowness of the faith. Mostly just non-religious personalities, geographical location, education, and the like, I think, that make each a bit unique.

What is the purpose of all their sweetness - gather numbers so that they can make spectacular temples so that more people join them. It is the same hunger for numbers as in other religions with sons, messengers, manifestations and mahdis.

 

[oldbadger]

If not, I think it too shall pass. Another 50 years at most. Lots of once popular movements have died off. We simply can't stay living in the past and expect modern thinkers to come along.

In the West it will die out, I reckon, it's just a matter of enough folks explaining how it might be .... in a Bahai World.

I do admire the Amish though.

They just seem to be amazing folks. I've seen reality films about them and they have been featured in Hollywood films.
It seems as if they will not be much affected when internal combustion engines are finally exterminated!
And they certainly never added to the accumulating dirt and muck in the World.

Who knows........ In a thousand years any survivors might be living like the Amish do now?

 

[LuisDantas]

Abu aAkr was dead many years before Ali became khaliph... between Abu Bakr and Ali were two more khaliphs. You can't do history. The rest of your post was subjective garbage.

Ali could have been chosen as the first Khaliph, however. For all that we know, Muhammad may well have meant for him to be the first Khaliph.

And you could easily come to benefit from listening to what you just called garbage. It is not like she meant to insult or anything, nor are the alternative views well protected from being called subjective and/or garbage themselves.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why was Abu Bakr chosen as the first Caliph? Was Ali deficient in some respect? Or it was just the case that Umar proposed and noone dared to contest Umar's proposition?

 

[LuisDantas]

Why was Abu Bakr chosen as the first Caliph? Was Ali deficient in some respect? Or it was just the case that Umar proposed and noone dared to contest Umar's position?

Ali was not in good terms with some other of Muhammad's closest supporters, most notably Aisha, but also Umar. Both Umar and Abu Bakr were Muhammad's fathers-in-law, while Ali was Muhammad's son-in-law.

Muhammad had no surviving sons at the time of his death, although he had daughters.

It may well be that the early Muslims simply could not accept that a prestigious role would bypass the fathers-in-law.

Personally, I think that the degree of internal dislike and strife among the very people who directly supported Muhammad is indicative of the quality of Islaam's teachings from the first.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, I read that Umar ibn Khattab was a tall powerful man, a wrestler.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ali could have been chosen as the first Khaliph, however. For all that we know, Muhammad may well have meant for him to be the first Khaliph.

And you could easily come to benefit from listening to what you just called garbage. It is not like she meant to insult or anything, nor are the alternative views well protected from being called subjective and/or garbage themselves.

What He said is typical when a woman in Islam speaks up.

 

[LuisDantas]

What He said is typical when a woman in Islam speaks up.

It did not occur to me that the motivation could be your gender.

Thanks for pointing that out to me

And sorry. You deserve better, and I must assume that so do most Muslimahs.