Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[Ellen Brown]

It did not occur to me that the motivation could be your gender.

Thanks for pointing that out to me

And sorry. You deserve better, and I must assume that so do most Muslimahs.

Thank you. Don't go after him. He is just living as the savage he was taught to be..

Islamic men are not just one kind. A Saudi man once told me that only about 27% of those in their country are even religious. The rest just play the game because they have to. From my own point of view, being Muslimah would have been perfect, except some of the men are abusive to the point that they actually hit women. In the Quran, Surah 4:34 even seems to give the husband permission to do so. There are many different interpretations of that passage and not all men do it. If things were different, I would happily give myself to a good Muslim man.

 

[LuisDantas]

I somewhat relate. I was never a believer in Jesus, yet I was sent to Eucharisty all the same. No one seemed to want to know whether I felt the drive to.

 

[Mohsen]

Ali could have been chosen as the first Khaliph, however. For all that we know, Muhammad may well have meant for him to be the first Khaliph.

And you could easily come to benefit from listening to what you just called garbage. It is not like she meant to insult or anything, nor are the alternative views well protected from being called subjective and/or garbage themselves.

Stop ignoring the elephant in the room Luis.

Abu Bakr did not kill/could not kill Ali - they were not enemies and did not seek power. Ali himself didn’t care for the position and neither did Abu Bakr, he actually refused the position because he feared the responsibility of leading a fledgling nation of Muslims - they all did. It was a prerequisite that any man seeking the position would automatically disqualify himself from the selection process because it would show he craved power. This is because the first four amir’s (Abu bakr, omar, uthman and Ali) all had these qualities which set an example and from this example came that wisdom!!! If only secular democracy had these values we wouldn’t have the corrupt scandalous politicians we have in today in the west!!!

Now, for that elephant in the room:

Abu Bakr died before Ali came to be leader so Abu Bakr couldn’t have killed him.

You guys talk whack lol

Just pick up some seerah books. They don’t disagree or give alternative accounts - they are based on mutawatir (multiple chain authenticated witness testimony) ahadeeth.

Seriously, get educated on these matters before you open your traps.

 

[LuisDantas]

Stop ignoring the elephant in the room Luis.

I have no idea of what you mean by that, but let's read on.

Abu Bakr did not kill/could not kill Ali - they were not enemies and did not seek power.

That is not exactly a known fact, particularly if you ask the Shia.

If I may ask, on what do you base the certainty that neither Abu Bakr nor Ali sought power? Both of them found it, after all, and neither seemed too troubled by that.

Ali himself didn’t care for the position and neither did Abu Bakr, he actually refused the position because he feared the responsibility of leading a fledgling nation of Muslims - they all did. It was a prerequisite that any man seeking the position would automatically disqualify himself from the selection process because it would show he craved power. This is because the first four amir’s (Abu bakr, omar, uthman and Ali) all had these qualities which set an example and from this example came that wisdom!!! If only secular democracy had these values we wouldn’t have the corrupt scandalous politicians we have in today in the west!!!

Ah, the Four Perfect ones, the Rashidun. From hearing the tale one would almost believe that the first Fitna was an invention of the West.

I guess that a millenium of distance makes most anything appear better and more respectable.

Now, for that elephant in the room:

Abu Bakr died before Ali came to be leader so Abu Bakr couldn’t have killed him.

We never denied that. Was that supposed to be the elephant?

You guys talk whack lol

Just pick up some seerah books. They don’t disagree or give alternative accounts - they are based on mutawatir (multiple chain authenticated witness testimony) ahadeeth.

Seriously, get educated on these matters before you open your traps.

Try us

 

[Ellen Brown]

Stop ignoring the elephant in the room Luis.

Abu Bakr did not kill/could not kill Ali - they were not enemies and did not seek power. Ali himself didn’t care for the position and neither did Abu Bakr, he actually refused the position because he feared the responsibility of leading a fledgling nation of Muslims - they all did. It was a prerequisite that any man seeking the position would automatically disqualify himself from the selection process because it would show he craved power. This is because the first four amir’s (Abu bakr, omar, uthman and Ali) all had these qualities which set an example and from this example came that wisdom!!! If only secular democracy had these values we wouldn’t have the corrupt scandalous politicians we have in today in the west!!!

Now, for that elephant in the room:

Abu Bakr died before Ali came to be leader so Abu Bakr couldn’t have killed him.

You guys talk whack lol

Just pick up some seerah books. They don’t disagree or give alternative accounts - they are based on mutawatir (multiple chain authenticated witness testimony) ahadeeth.

Seriously, get educated on these matters before you open your traps.

You are abusive and tactless.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, we had/have, but it is not something that merits a proud quote. Bahais are a recent phenomenon. God seems to have woken up to this fact only belatedly.

You probably missed the irony of the quote from Paul. I’m sure we could find some misogynistic Hindu scripture without too much trouble. It’s not my point. The world of humanity appears unable to have embraced true equality of men and women until recently. If we are to follow any religion at all, it needs to be aligned to the spirit of this modern age.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The world of humanity appears unable to have embraced true equality of men and women until recently. If we are to follow any religion at all, it needs to be aligned to the spirit of this modern age.

Did the West require a son, a prophet, a messenger, a manifestation or a mahdi for it? These things happen in due course of time without the intervention of any of them or a God.

 

[siti]

You probably missed the irony of the quote from Paul. I’m sure we could find some misogynistic Hindu scripture without too much trouble. It’s not my point. The world of humanity appears unable to have embraced true equality of men and women until recently. If we are to follow any religion at all, it needs to be aligned to the spirit of this modern age.

In terms of equality of the sexes and acceptance of homosexuality, that would make the Quakers just about the most "aligned to the spirit of this modern age". They are a good couple of centuries ahead of Baha'is on sexual equality and decades ahead of almost all the other churches on acceptance of gay marriage (for example). God knows when Baha'is will abandon their medieval stance on homosexuality - or maybe he doesn't yet!

 

[Ellen Brown]

I've been trying to find a religion to join that is suitable to the Creator, when the truth was tapping me on the shoulder. I am a Child of God, the most high. May he order my way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, for that elephant in the room: Abu Bakr died before Ali came to be leader so Abu Bakr couldn’t have killed him.

None of the three wanted to kill Ali, only that they did not want Caliphate to go to him. Probably, because that would have established a dynasty, though Mohammad wanted that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've been trying to find a religion to join that is suitable to the Creator, when the truth was tapping me on the shoulder. I am a Child of God, the most high. May he order my way.

You may be interested to learn more about the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is believe both Christ and Muhammad are Manifestations of God. We see both the Gospels and Qur'an as the Word of God. We believe God has sent another Messenger, Baha'u'llah for this age.

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Ellen Brown]

You may be interested to learn more about the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is believe both Christ and Muhammad are Manifestations of God. We see both the Gospels and Qur'an as the Word of God. We believe God has sent another Messenger, Baha'u'llah for this age.

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

I may have been sort of Baha'I for a while and not understood? After getting burned and abused in Christianity, and Islam, and found the Jews too exclusivistic for my tolerance, I decided I couldn't figure it out and gave up on it all, except God. I've felt for a long time that the Christian Prophets were real, but that Jesus is just OH so much more than a Prophet. That Muslims take offense at Jesus being called Son of God, is a linguistic lack of understanding between Arabic and the rest of the worlds language and THAT, God put there. And Arabs don't put a lot of effort into understanding the world around them. They just expect the world to yield to them.

For the time being, I attend a Christian Church, but am mainly there to pray and the sacrament. Most of my spiritual world is uncertain and inscrutable, and I'm fine with that. There is scripture that supports folk like me, the most important to me being Micah 6:8

He has told you, O man, what is good;

and fwhat does the Lord require of you

but to do justice, and to love kindness,2

and to walk humbly with your God?

Man, unwilling to follow the Holy Spirit makes giant edifices of Doctrine that make following God a turmoil.

 

[danieldemol]

In terms of equality of the sexes and acceptance of homosexuality, that would make the Quakers just about the most "aligned to the spirit of this modern age". They are a good couple of centuries ahead of Baha'is on sexual equality and decades ahead of almost all the other churches on acceptance of gay marriage (for example). God knows when Baha'is will abandon their medieval stance on homosexuality - or maybe he doesn't yet!

Some of us already have abandoned it, and would congratulate the Quakers on their forward thinking on this issue. The faith could do with some liberalisation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I may have been sort of Baha'I for a while and not understood? After getting burned and abused in Christianity, and Islam, and found the Jews too exclusivistic for my tolerance, I decided I couldn't figure it out and gave up on it all, except God. I've felt for a long time that the Christian Prophets were real, but that Jesus is just OH so much more than a Prophet. That Muslims take offense at Jesus being called Son of God, is a linguistic lack of understanding between Arabic and the rest of the worlds language and THAT, God put there. And Arabs don't put a lot of effort into understanding the world around them. They just expect the world to yield to them.

For the time being, I attend a Christian Church, but am mainly there to pray and the sacrament. Most of my spiritual world is uncertain and inscrutable, and I'm fine with that. There is scripture that supports folk like me, the most important to me being Micah 6:8

He has told you, O man, what is good;

and fwhat does the Lord require of you

but to do justice, and to love kindness,2

and to walk humbly with your God?

Man, unwilling to follow the Holy Spirit makes giant edifices of Doctrine that make following God a turmoil.

Sounds like a reasonable space to be in, but not particularly satisfying in the long term.

I was attending a Baptist church prior to becoming a Baha'i. I knew I had to be on the periphery as I had believes that clashed with the conservatives, most notably a belief that the other main religions were inspired by the same God Christianity was. I became a Baha'i nearly 30 years ago. Its been one of the best decisions I've made. I didn't have the experience of investigating Islam so its my joy to be learning more about it now. Instead when I was searching, I would check out the Buddhists.

For me, being Baha'i, Christian or agnostic make the most sense but we all have our different journeys.

Do you know if there is a Baha'i community in your locality?

 

[Dawnofhope]

In terms of equality of the sexes and acceptance of homosexuality, that would make the Quakers just about the most "aligned to the spirit of this modern age". They are a good couple of centuries ahead of Baha'is on sexual equality and decades ahead of almost all the other churches on acceptance of gay marriage (for example). God knows when Baha'is will abandon their medieval stance on homosexuality - or maybe he doesn't yet!

I would like to see those who are gay comfortable with the Baha'is and even being a Baha'i. Clearly our laws restrict marriage to a man and a woman, but Baha'is should associate with all peoples in a spirit of love and fellowship.

I agree that if someone absolutely believes that it is God's will for homosexuality to be lawful and the same as heterosexual marriage, then the Baha'i faith probably isn't the right religion for them.

We all need to read the reality of our own lives and assess what is the best spiritual path for ourselves. It is a personal journey for each one of us.

 

[LuisDantas]

Did the West require a son, a prophet, a messenger, a manifestation or a mahdi for it? These things happen in due course of time without the intervention of any of them or a God.

Also, why would a God such as Abraham's be so sparse with the giving of actual wisdom?

Those ideas always felt weird to me. I assume they did to you as well, @Aupmanyav .

 

[Dawnofhope]

Did the West require a son, a prophet, a messenger, a manifestation or a mahdi for it? These things happen in due course of time without the intervention of any of them or a God.

Both Christianity and Islam played an enormous role contributing to the intellectual and moral development of Europe.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would like to see those who are gay comfortable with the Baha'is and even being a Baha'i. Clearly our laws restrict marriage to a man and a woman, but Baha'is should associate with all peoples in a spirit of love and fellowship.

I agree that if someone absolutely believes that it is God's will for homosexuality to be lawful and the same as heterosexual marriage, then the Baha'i faith probably isn't the right religion for them.

We all need to read the reality of our own lives and assess what is the best spiritual path for ourselves. It is a personal journey for each one of us.

I want to clearly say that I appreciate your honesty.

And I dearly hope that the Bahai Faith succeeds, soon if at all possible, in overcoming that aspect of its legacy. There is no shortage of people who would benefit from such success.

 

[LuisDantas]

Both Christianity and Islam played an enormous role contributing to the intellectual and moral development of Europe.

They were certainly present and influential at the time.

How would things have gone without them, how much better or worse it would have been and in which ways, is far less clear, although many people feel strongly on the subject matter anyway.

 

[siti]

I agree that if someone absolutely believes that it is God's will for homosexuality to be lawful and the same as heterosexual marriage, then the Baha'i faith probably isn't the right religion for them.

Yep - that's right! I suppose their only option is to revert to a twice-superseded and reportedly unstable legacy version of Divine Manifestation with an unauthorized upgrade that is not supported by the original vendor and presumably invalidates any "aligned with the spirit of this modern age" warranty.