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Trump 2024. Why or why not.
- Thread starter David1967
- Start date
No, that was an insurrection. Several have already been incarcerated for their crimes that day. Trump will go to prison for his role in the insurrection.
So do I, but it wasn't Trump who stole the election. Putin's and Comey's contributions to Trump's candidacy did the Trick. Trump was just the witless benefactor and useful idiot.
A few hundred mental health experts disagree and have said so in writing: "Experts are desperate to warn the public": Hundreds sign Dr. John Gartner's Trump dementia petition
Trump has been indicted for crimes surrounding January 6th. From Trump indicted by grand jury in special counsel Jack Smith's Jan. 6 investigation
"Special counsel Jack Smith, in announcing the charges Tuesday, called what happened on Jan. 6, 2021, an "unprecedented assault" on democracy. "It was fueled by lies: Lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the U.S. government — the nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election."
It's not credible that that would change your mind about Trump.
Same answer. It's not credible that anything would turn you against Trump. You might prefer a different candidate if you thought Trump were unelectable, but you would under no circumstances ever find him unacceptable whatever he's done. It just doesn't matter to MAGA. The evidence for that is all over this thread, and we saw evidence of that in the recent Jimmy Kimmel segment discussed here and which you can watch here beginning at the 8:45 mark. These MAGA also don't care about crime if it's Trump's crime - only if they thought Biden did it:
But MAGA like to invoke the pretense of caring about law and order and respecting juror's judgments the way creationists like to do the same for reason, evidence, and science. I guess you all just can't say that you don't care what crimes Trump commits, so you make comments like yours above and the one preceding it, and when Trump is convicted, you don't accept the judgments. The hive is loyal.
You're projecting now. You can't distinguish dementia from a sound mind.
And so you blame Biden for that. I presume that you're referring to inflation, which has hit much of the world. We spend more for groceries and restaurants than we did four years ago here in Mexico as well. Shall I blame Biden for that? You probably do. Of course, think how much worse it would have been had Trump not welched on his promise to his voters to make Mexico pay for a wall.
You've got to give them a standing ovation for eating Trump's lunch by stealing that election from him without leaving a trace of evidence despite multiple recounts, audits, and lawsuits. You know what that means for 2024, don't you? If the Republicans were so easily cheated then and never found out how, well, do the math.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
If the Democrats are so good at stealing elections, why didn't the steal the entire Congress in 2020, eh? Never get an answer to this question. Wonder why?
She's definately part of our election history, but it makes me smile that she defeated Trump by nearly 3 million votes. Of course our flawed and obsolete system rendered the majority irrelevant.
There's a big difference that MAGAs don't admit, and that's how Trump lies about election fraud, and with the 2016 election cycle there was intelligence that Russia intended to harm Clinton and help Trump. We can't know if Russia's actions really worked or not. We can say that Comey's announcement of a renewed investigation on Clinton 11 days before the election did have a negative impact.
I supported Sanders in my state's caucus, which he won. But Clinton got the nomination, and there was some monkey business with the DNC which I did not like. But I voted for Clinton because she had the skills and experience to manage the USA, and Trump has always been dumb and inept. He was worse than anyone predicted. Most supporters hated Clinton and said that Trump would grow and change to rise to the challenge of the presidency. No he didn't. The only reason he didn't do more harm was because he was not prepared to win, nor for the job. He actually hired some competent people and they kept him within the guardrails. By his last year he has a skeleton crew and his management of the pandemic was a catastrophe. He was fired.
Now Trump in on the edge of another chance to be in the presidency, and he is more disturbed and angry, as petty and insecure peolpe are. He will use whatever authority and power he can get to get revenge. He will hire people who will do what he wants this time.
If Trump were to apply for a job in the government that requires a security clearance he would not get it. He is a huge risk given his massive debts. Trump refers to himself as the government, as the USA, and whatever trouble he has it's government business, and he will sell anything he can to help himself. Trump, and his supporters, are are global threat to peace and stability.
Laniakea
Not of this world
Can you post it in context of what he actually said?
Laniakea
Not of this world
Another democrat projection video.
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Incorrect.
Laniakea
Not of this world
Very correct.
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Wrong again. They're Republicans.
Laniakea
Not of this world
Thank you for openly showing bias.
However, Republicans or not, they are correct.
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Unfettered
A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
That's a "no" for me. "No" for Biden, as well. Lonely world for the independent thinkers.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
"several"
(as in less than half a percent of those who attended)"desperate" does seem to be the operative word there. It's almost as if... millions of people can watch Trump speak and draw their own (different) conclusions.
Several as in several hundred. What makes it an insurrection is that it was a violent assault on the government, not how many participated. And all it takes is one. And we saw a huge, violent mob storm the Capitol."several"
Don't take my word for it. This (source) was from Trump himself:
“Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem,” the Republican said on Jan. 7, describing the riot as a “heinous attack.” Reading from a prepared text, Trump added: “The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. ... To those who engage in the acts of violence and destruction: You do not represent our country, and to those who broke the law: You will pay.”
Five days later, the Republican condemned the “mob [that] stormed the Capitol and trashed the halls of government.” On the final full day of his term, again reading from a script, Trump added: “All Americans were horrified by the assault on our Capitol. Political violence is an attack on everything we cherish as Americans. It can never be tolerated.”
Of course, later Trump called those people hostages and patriots and promised to pardon them, so the above was obviously lip service and damage control from Trump's handlers, but for a day at least, Trump was convinced to speak the truth before recanting, just like McConnell, Stefanik, McCarthy, and Mace - the invertebrate caucus.
The operative words are experts and danger. I don't suppose expertise matters to you. If so, that document isn't intended for you. It's purpose is to reach those that would care that the presumptive Republican nominee is dangerous in the eyes of experts. Just the presence of dementia alone makes Trump dangerous, but throw in his need for vengeance, his desire to retool the American people's government to serve him, that he's Putin's lap poodle, and his own anti-democratic authoritarian bent, and the danger increases tenfold.
The ones listening to Trump don't think for themselves, and their judgment is not to be trusted. If you don't see dementia in Trump but you do see it in Biden, your judgment is poor. If you don't see criminality in Trump but you do see it in Biden, your judgment is poor. If you think Hillary opining that she thought that the election was stolen from her is equivalent to The Big Lie, your judgment is poor. If you think that Biden having state secrets was equivalent to what Trump did, your judgment is poor.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Judicial Watch (JW) is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit[1] American conservative activist group[2] that files Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuits to investigate claimed misconduct by government officials. Founded in 1994, JW has primarily targeted Democrats, in particular the administrations of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, as well as Hillary Clinton's role in them. It was founded by attorney Larry Klayman, and has been led by Tom Fitton since 2003.
The organization has filed lawsuits against government climate scientists. JW has made numerous false and unsubstantiated claims that have been picked up by right-wing news outlets and promoted by conservative figures. Former U.S. President Donald Trump has repeatedly cited false claims by Judicial Watch about voter fraud. Various courts have dismissed the vast majority of its lawsuits.[3]
Judicial Watch - Wikipedia
Thomas J. Fitton is an American conservative activist and the president of Judicial Watch.
Fitton is a long-term senior member of the Council for National Policy, a right wing umbrella organization for groups such as Judicial Watch.[1] Fitton is the current President of the Council for National Policy, taking up the role in February 2022.[2]
Fitton is known for pro-Trump commentary.[3] Fitton is prominent for criticizing Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election; he has said that the investigation was a "coup" against U.S. President Donald Trump and called for it to be shut down.[4][5] In 2022, researchers found that Fitton was the third-most prolific purveyor of election misinformation on Twitter during the late months of 2020.[6]
Fitton rejects the scientific consensus on climate change; under his tenure, Judicial Watch has filed lawsuits against climate scientists.[7][8]
Thomas J. Fitton is an American conservative activist and the president of Judicial Watch.
Fitton is a long-term senior member of the Council for National Policy, a right wing umbrella organization for groups such as Judicial Watch.[1] Fitton is the current President of the Council for National Policy, taking up the role in February 2022.[2]
Fitton is known for pro-Trump commentary.[3] Fitton is prominent for criticizing Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into alleged Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election; he has said that the investigation was a "coup" against U.S. President Donald Trump and called for it to be shut down.[4][5] In 2022, researchers found that Fitton was the third-most prolific purveyor of election misinformation on Twitter during the late months of 2020.[6]
Fitton rejects the scientific consensus on climate change; under his tenure, Judicial Watch has filed lawsuits against climate scientists.[7][8]
Early life
Fitton was born in West Nyack, New York, in 1968.[9] He graduated from Clarkstown High School South in 1986.[10] Fitton has a bachelor's degree in English from George Washington University.[11] His father was a manager at a supermarket and his mother was a nurse.[12]
Tom Fitton - Wikipedia
The previous president of Judicial Watch:
Following Klayman's behavior in a 1992 trial in California federal court, Judge William Duffy Keller barred him from his courtroom for life. Five years later, in a separate case in New York, Klayman's behavior led District Judge Denny Chin to issue a lifetime ban on the attorney practicing law before him.[30]
In 2007, Klayman received a $25,000 retainer from a Daytona Beach woman facing criminal charges who accused him of not providing legal services in return.[31] The Florida Bar mediated the matter, and Klayman agreed to pay off a small portion within 90 days, but after the deadline lapsed, he was reprimanded.[32][33]
In 2014, Klayman agreed to be publicly censured by the D.C. Bar. Klayman represented three individuals who had sued Judicial Watch, his former employer and client, but failed to obtain Judicial Watch's consent to waive his conflict of interest. Klayman maintained that the bar had "recognized there was no evidence of dishonesty or personal gain."[34] The D.C. Court of Appeals, which supervises the D.C. Bar, in 2020 instead suspended Klayman's license for 90 days and ordered him to complete a class on legal ethics.[35][36] Klayman sued Politico for defamation over its coverage of his suspension.[37] In 2021, the D.C. Circuit Court also suspended Klayman's ability to practice before it for 90 days over this matter; it also referred him to one of its committees to determine whether further discipline is warranted.[38]
An October 2016 opinion by a Ninth Circuit Court on Klayman's attempt to represent Cliven Bundy noted 12 cases "in which Klayman's ability to practice law in an ethical and orderly manner was called into question."[15]
In 2018, Klayman unsuccessfully sued the District of Columbia Bar and some of its employees by alleging they were conspiring to disbar him. Klayman's lawsuit acknowledged three disciplinary actions then pending against him: the Judicial Watch matter already mentioned, Klayman's attempts to represent Bundy, and a complaint on his representation of a sexual-harassment plaintiff.[39]
With respect to the last complaint, the D.C. Court of Appeals in 2022 ruled Klayman had committed six ethical violations related to his representation of a client.[40] The D.C. Court of Appeals suspended Klayman's license to practice law for 18 months and imposed a requirement that he prove his fitness to practice law before his license could be reinstated.[40] In light of this suspension, the D.C. Circuit Court in 2023 also imposed reciprocal discipline for 18 months.[41]
Larry Klayman - Wikipedia
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Ponder This
Well-Known Member
Your remarks are necessarily confined to "several hundred", and necessarily disregard the vast majority of people who attended (to whom I referred in my statement).
Even so, these activites are most properly characterized as a riot. Even occupying the capitol building or delaying congress from carrying out its duties has precedent in U.S. history in terms of how those actions are considered (hint: not insurrection). One reason some may deserve a pardon for their actions on Jan 6 is because of the overzealous actions taken against them to punish them in their intent to enage in their right to free speech, to gather, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It's actual beyond desperate. Dr. John Gartner submitted a petition signed by more than 25,000 mental health professionals in 2017 to Senator Chuck Schumer for the purpose of removing Trump from office on the grounds that he was unfit to serve. And subsequently they were able to increase the number of signatories to more than 41,000. This attempt in 2017 was desperate and had no real chance of success, because it was so blatantly politically motivated.
Now, in 2024, Dr. John Gartner has a petition signed by "a few hundred" mental health experts. It's beyond desperate. Even if Dr. John Gartner manages to increase the signatories to more than 41,000 it has no chance. Moreover, Dr John Gartner has declared that Biden is aging, but there is no petition to remove Biden from office. If anything, this petition is like a psychological compulsion to repeat a behavior in response to an obsession. Even if signed by "experts", this petition to declare Trump unfit for office cannot be taken seriously. It is a joke; it is beyond desperate.
I don't claim Biden has dementia
and I think that if you believe Biden has dementia, then the burden of proof is on you to show it - not me. Special Council Robert Hurr may believe a jury would be easily convinced that Biden is mentally unfit, but I haven't been convinced that this is a substantial reason Biden shouldn't stand trial. If you want to argue that Trump should stand trial but Biden should not stand trial, then I think the problem is on your part, not mine, in regards to supposed criminality. Your use of the phrase "The Big Lie" - I don't know if you are aware of the roots of that phrase - doesn't reflect well when you use that in regards to a comparison between Hillary and Trump.But worst is your claim that "the ones listening to Trump don't think for themselves". Lot's of people listen to Trump and have their own thoughts and disagreements. They support him for many reasons. Some support Trump because they see that Trump is a populist candidate that speaks his mind (even though they disagree with things Trump says)!
They were that, too, but because they were a violent uprising against a government, they were also an insurrection.
America should have acted then. The Republican senate should have removed him after the House impeached him. But that would be another country. The Republicans failed to do the right thing. Of course they did.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not according to the testimony of many that were convicted as they said they were doing this because Trump told them that the election was being stolen from him, thus they wanted to block the certification. To call what I watched for almost three hours when it happened "free speech" is just nuts. Since when does "free speech" injure more than 100 police with 5 eventually dying?
Trump 2024? Why or why not? The record, look at his record:
I alone can fix it!
"I will eliminate the debt." Added $7.8 trillion to it.
"I will speedily reduce the trade deficit." Trade deficit increased by 26.4% (Public Citizen)
"I will be the greatest jobs President God ever created." Worst jobs record since Hoover (Fortune)
"I will be working too hard for you to go golfing." Spent almost 1 year of 4 golfing on his own resorts.
"I will reverse and repeal Obama Care on day one." Still waiting.
"It's 15 people, and soon it'll be down to zero." Stopped counting in June 2023, when it was 1,134,641 deaths, and counting.
I alone can fix it!
"I will eliminate the debt." Added $7.8 trillion to it.
"I will speedily reduce the trade deficit." Trade deficit increased by 26.4% (Public Citizen)
"I will be the greatest jobs President God ever created." Worst jobs record since Hoover (Fortune)
"I will be working too hard for you to go golfing." Spent almost 1 year of 4 golfing on his own resorts.
"I will reverse and repeal Obama Care on day one." Still waiting.
"It's 15 people, and soon it'll be down to zero." Stopped counting in June 2023, when it was 1,134,641 deaths, and counting.