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Featured Transgender People Welcomed by The Church of England

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by The Holy Bottom Burp, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    On the contrary, some of the greatest people I've known were gays and lesbians from my childhood. One lesbian couple helped my my mom and I when no one else did. A gay man was the closest I had to a father figure. He treated me as his own child. Beautiful person. I still remember him fondly and miss him deeply. Homophobia is what is dysfunctional and irrational. I'm grateful that I was raised around gay and lesbian people. I only wish I wasn't exposed to society's poisonous homophobic views of it later on. The innocence of childhood.

    Just goes to show that your "instincts" about it are not hardwired but are the result of social indoctrination.
     
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  2. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Trans issues aren't new. Sometimes trans people would pop up in the public eye when they transitioned going back to at least the '30s in modern times. Society is just paying more attention now. We've always existed and have been part of medical literature for over a century.

    Maybe the advance of scientific and medical research, along with changing social attitudes, is the Divine's way of "fixing" the problem.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Unrepentant pedophiles, by and large feed one another with sexually explicit images of children taken by sick adults. These are freely shared on the internet. They teach others how to abuse their own children. Unfortunately there are more of these than there are of the ones you mentioned. Police officers who stalk pedophiles online have to go home, knowing that countless children are being abused as they sleep. They catch some, but not anywhere close to enough.

    Those who are genuine in their efforts to keep their sexual urges under control are to be admired. They can be fine upstanding citizens in their community, but not if everyone is pointing fingers at them because they may have taken a false step at some time with a lapse in judgment.

    Do you persecute them forever over former actions, or do you give them an opportunity to change their ways?
     
  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    I edited my post to point out there's a difference between actual pedophiles (who tend to be childlike themselves, psychologically, and actually have romantic feelings towards prepubescent children, which may or may not be sexual) and those who groom and rape children. I'm sure there's some overlap but they're not necessarily the same things. Some are just sexual sadists, which is a different category. There's a similar difference between actual zoosexuals (those who are actually romantically and sexually attracted to non-human animals, and who treat them with respect) and sexual sadists who abuse non-human animals for sexual gratification. Rapists, torturers, etc. tend to be off in their own psychological category and tend to have Anti-social Personality Disorder.

    I support healthy acceptance of paraphilias and those who have them. I don't believe in punishing or shaming them. The best way to clinically handle it is to promote acceptance of those feelings instead of self-hatred and encourage the person to find healthy and legal ways of expressing themselves. Some people with attractions to minors may be able to find satisfaction with adults through things like ageplay or other fantasies. Won't work for pedophiles with no attractions to adults at all, but there's other options to help them keep from offending while accepting themselves. You can't control your attractions, anyway, but you can control your actions.
     
    #44 Saint Frankenstein, Jul 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have heard that gay men make the best "girlfriends". I have no issue with the people, many of whom are no doubt wonderful personalities......I have an issue with their lifestyle, that's all.

    It is not one I could encourage for my children or anyone else for that matter. But gay people are welcome in our congregations and their conduct is often exemplary. They are usually kind and very caring.....but they are not living as homosexuals though. They are just single members of the congregation who keep busy with meaningful activities, helping others as the need arises. They are no different to any other unmarried members of our organization.

    I know that and yes, it goes back aways. It's just exploded in recent years. Attitudes are changing, there is no doubt about that. And I do feel for those who believe that they are trapped in the wrong body. I have no doubt that God understands.

    The "Divine Way" to fix the problem, according to scripture, is to fix the faulty genetics of individuals. We all need "fixing", not just those who have obvious issues. All humans are defective in one way or another.

    I see a new world where all those problems will no longer exist because God will have rectified the whole mess from its foundations up. (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:2-4) :)
     
  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    There is no "lifestyle". There is gay culture, which varies by era and location, but there is nothing that all gay people hold in common besides being attracted to their own gender. It's like saying there's one way to be Irish or African-American because there are Irish and African-American cultures. Gay culture is very diverse and includes those who pursue celibate religious lifestyles.

    My father figure was not effeminate. That's a stereotype.

    They are "living as homosexuals" since they're homosexuals, just not having relationships (or so you think). They still have the orientation.

    Sounds a lot like transhumanism. You're free to believe that but I'm not waiting for that.
     
  7. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    For me the alteration in "gut feelings" occured by meditating on the nature of Brahman and reflecting on the nature of dharma (ethics)
    Yes. I consider the God portrayed in the Bible to be a severely ethically flawed being that ought not to be worshiped.

    Hindu Gods say that ethics is something that is not unchangeable. Rather it alters with the times to ensure maximal human flourishing in the 4 spheres of life (sphere of justice, sphere of productive activity and wealth generation, sphere of family and interpersonal relationships, sphere of spiritual development and religious praxis). In any age there will be times when old laws, like old clothes will not fit but chafe at humanity... then moral movements will arise and moral giants will be born who will show humanity new paths to follow in these spheres. This is the natural cycle of continuous creative destruction and recreation that is the flow of the world system (samsara). All systems of morality that aims at maximizing ahimsa (non harming of others in thought, word and deed, non-exploitation, considering others needs etc. extends to animals if possible) within the cultural, social and technological constraints of that period is compatible with Hinduism.

    In the Bible, the actions of God in the OT (genesis, Exodus, conquest of Canaan, job) can only be construed as severe failings of ethics on the part of the described God. In Hinduism such actions are only fit for an Asura (an unenlightened divine being) rather than a Deva (an enlightened divine being).. much less a Supreme God (iswara). So unless the Bible is construed as either a non literal or a partial and imperfect revelation through centuries to a people in history, the only other option is to state that Bible believers worship a false God. Your choice.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sexual deviations have been in existence for as long as humankind have lived. The first thing that Adam and his wife noticed after unleashing a knowledge of evil was that their reproductive parts were now somehow "shameful". This was a completely new feeling.....they had not worn clothing and felt no shame beforehand. "Sin" entered into the world and it has never recovered. (Romans 5:12)

    With this knowledge came actions....within one generation, a cold-blooded murderer appeared. Out of a fit of jealousy, Cain killed his brother. It was all downhill from then on. History is flooded with the actions of immoral humans.

    From the flood story we get the idea that rebel angels wanted a piece of that action. They materialized human bodies and co-habited with women to produce freakish offspring with violent and licentious dispositions like their fathers.

    Violence and immorality have plagued the earth ever since. It is climaxing in our day because the end is in sight. This world is in its death throes.

    I agree with these sentiments. Healthy and legal ways to find a peaceful way to live are to be encouraged.

    Yes, we should all be able to control our actions.

    Helping these ones without condemning them is the way to go. Shaming them accomplishes nothing. Motivating them makes more sense because we all deserve human dignity.
     
  9. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Yes, that is the mythological lens through which you view things. I understand that. (Not saying that as an insult because I have my own myths.)


    Wow, we can actually agree on something. Maybe the world is about to end! :eek::D
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Most of the gay men that I have seen are very effeminate. Its easy to stereotype. You can hear it in their voice and see it in their actions. I am not saying that they are all like that....just most of the ones I have seen. I don't hang with homosexuals, but I have studied the Bible with a few.

    No, I don't agree. They are living as single people who have an orientation that God understands, but does not condone when acted upon. They understand that there are limits for God's servants in many areas and they are willing to sacrifice the present for a wonderful future.....an everlasting one.

    When I was studying with a gay girl some years ago, it was most interesting to listen to her conversations with others. The word "he" was never heard unless someone was talking about their brother or father. It was *****y and mean spirited when things went wrong. Nasty cat fights were common. This person only wanted to study if she was between relationships. That showed me that she was not really wanting to please God...only herself. I did not continue with her.

    It is more a physical transformation of all who are granted entry into the Kingdom. A place where God's will is done "on earth as it is in heaven"...I am prepared to wait for as long as it takes. My heart identifies with such a world and I want to live there so much more than I want to live in this world with all its troubles and tragedy.....I hate it and want it to end.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    @Saint Frankenstein before I go to bed, I just want to say I love your words throughout this post. I'm glad you were raised in a PRIDE environment. A lot of people don't have that advantage. I know my mother was raised in Iran before she came here and never knew about racism until she hit the states. She wasn't judged by the color of her skin. That, and I read some things on pedephilia. Some of which you mentioned you have a good insight with. I'm hoping in my lifetime there would be more healthier views on sexuality in general and not associating actions based on one's orientation and gender identity.

    But, anyway, good night.
     
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  12. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    I agree with being forgiving in attitude towards people who have done wrong if they seek rehabilitation, who said I think paedophiles should live a life of condemnation until they die? Having said that, if I'm aware that someone in a group I belong to was a sex offender, especially when it comes to kids, I'm going to make damn sure that individual is NEVER left alone with a child from the group - I don't give a stuff about encroaching on the individual's "freedom", the child is the vulnerable one, the child is the one who needs to be protected from predatory adults.

    That is not an "unforgiving" attitude by the way, it is just common sense and a clear understanding of priorities when it comes to protecting the most vulnerable people in our culture. The trouble with organised religion is that it has a "public face" it likes to project to the general public, so there is pressure on members to "toe the party line" and hush up unseemly things like sex scandals. If someone does blow the whistle to the authorities, the chances are they'll be "frozen out" by their brethren because they have been seen to 'betray the cause'. As an atheist I have no such qualms, and I've got to say I'm pretty happy with that!
     
  13. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    Are you still trying to claim there are circumstances when sex with kids is consensual? If a child is raped or molested by his or her father from an early age until adulthood that is abuse agreed? Even if the child grows up to mistake it for "love" it is still abuse, agreed? It is a relationship founded on abuse. The abused sometimes become abusers themselves when they grow up, it is called a 'cycle of abuse', that's all. Can we agree on that point and move on?


    If by "personality" you mean beliefs, I'd say cultural influences are way more influential than "genetics". If you were born in Pakistan the chances are you'd be a Muslim, because that is what pervades the culture there. There is pressure to conform to cultural norms wherever you live, and cultural heritage has a huge impact on beliefs and social attitudes within the population.



    Sure, like I say, you beliefs about what is "immoral" sexually are formed by what your holy book tells you. I'm sure you understand but quoting the bible at me does not count as a good argument in my world view. All I see are quotes from ancient times, written by prudes and homophobes, why should I take any notice of what those long dead superstitious bigots thought? Imagine me quoting the Quran at you - are you going to sit up and take notice or think exactly like me with regards to quotes from the bible?

    It makes our discussion difficult, because you base your thinking on holy writ, and when it comes to morality I base my thinking on "whatever harms the wellbeing of other human beings is immoral", so sex between consenting adults is never going to mean immoral behaviour in my book. There is a bit of a gap to bridge there!






    I don't know you well enough to comment on whether you would still be "repulsed" of course, but as I said previously a lot of our beliefs are dictated by the culture we grow up in. Homophobia is still alive and well even in secular nations like the UK, but for centuries this nation was a Christian nation with homophobia a cultural norm because of biblical claims. Those prejudices don't disappear overnight, when they have been deeply ingrained in generations of people. In my religious days I can recognise then that casual homophobia, casual racism, casual misogyny formed part of my thinking based on my religious beliefs and cultural heritage. I'm not saying I was some sort of Nazi, just that I was immersed in my culture and didn't honestly ask myself "why do I believe that?".

    As an aside, if it is anal sex that "repulses" you know that not all gay couples are into anal sex, and quite a lot of "hetero" couple are right? Personally, I try not to think about what my friends and acquaintances get up to in the bedroom, gay or straight, male or female, that is their business!


    Just phraseology, misunderstandings happen, as I said I was somewhat relieved to find out I had got it wrong!


    Yes, more scripture, but I don't see it as an authority on anything, and I have to say I pretty much dislike the concept of "The Fall", it has probably been responsible for more religious guilt and angst than anything else. How many lives have been made miserable with guilt because a man or a woman has same sex attraction, or feels trapped inside the wrong gender, damn it how much guilt and angst in religious teenagers who masturbate? "Born sick and commanded to be well" as a man once said.

    I think we may have 'done' this one now Deeje, I think we have reached a bit of an impasse, but it has been a good debate (discussion is possibly too polite a term on this occasion!). I'm sure we'll butt heads again though!;)
     
  14. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    How do you know that most gay men are not effeminate? You can't tell them apart from straight men. You've only seen effeminate gay men and make the assumption that all gay men are effeminate. Besides, how do you know those effeminate men are gay? Did you see them having sex with another man? Epic failure on your part.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is not how it is with us. We disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers. The only ones "frozen out by the brethren" are those who try to hide what they are and take no responsibility for what they have done. Reinstatement is possible but only after the excommunicated individual demonstrates genuine remorse. No one would ever be penalized for telling the truth. The problem sometimes with the truth is that it can get skewed in the minds of those who like to embellish.

    No one likes sex scandals of any sort, but no organization of imperfect humans is going to be free of these issues. The trouble with JW's who go wrong is the fact that our name and reputation are smeared by the actions of a few deviant individuals. We have to remember that even Jesus had a rebel in the camp. By and large, we are one of the most cohesive and united bodies, (as far as beliefs and practices goes) on the planet. We are non-violent, non-political and we try to exhibit honesty and good morals in all we do. I have been a JW for over 45 years and these things are not common in our ranks. All we have to do is follow what Christ taught.....good reasonable recommendations that, when followed, lead to less problems in life. But, free will at times is abused by some, and that is unfortunate.
     
    #55 Deeje, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think that guilt has been part of the human psyche since Adam was kicked out of the garden......(I know you don't believe that, but we do.)
    Guilt is not meant to stand in front of you whacking you with a big stick [​IMG] We have a conscience for a reason...it is supposed to be a moral compass, guiding us not to do the wrong thing. And when we do wrong, it is meant to prompt us to right that wrong. It is a good thing to feel bad over doing something wrong.....it's it?

    Same sex attraction does not need to be acted upon, therefore no harm done. People just need to come to terms with a wiring problem and need to live within the parameters set by the Creator if they want to worship a God who sets rules. If they have no interest in God, then they can pretty much do whatever they want.....for now.

    Transgender issues are not held against anybody unless moral laws are broken. Moral laws are based on the Bible and always have been. Where do we get the idea that marriage is the right arrangement for two individuals to form a family? It is there in pretty much every culture. Where do we get the idea that infidelity is wrong? Why do we assume that a mate or a parent should be in our lives for keeps? Why is murder wrong? Theft? Extortion? Bribery? Injustice? Where do we get our sense of morality? It seems to span cultures generally.

    I was immersed in my culture too.....so I asked "why do I believe that?" about a lot of things in my belief system......I discarded the things that made no sense and embraced a new understanding of things that were never explained to me.
    I got to know the God I worshipped......and I got to like him a lot. :hugehug:


    I will try to write more carefully, if you can try to read a bit more carefully...... OK?[​IMG]
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    According to scripture

    If there is no action, the LGBTQ person is not in danger to self, others, and can take care of himself (which doctors and psychologist look for when finding anything wrong), what about his wiring is "off" that would cause him to sin more so than a straight person who, both, have the same choice and ability to sin regardless of their sexual orientation?

    What wiring that I have thats off that would physically and mentally make me inable to have sex with a man rather than a woman?

    Trying to figure the right phrasing. What is specifically wrong with my wiring when I have the same exact choice and ability to have sex with a man just as a straight woman does?

    Homosexuality is not like having addiction to sweets. Its not an addiction or a, how you say, a temptation. Its just there. While eating my donut, watching tv, taking a shower.

    If its poor wiring, how do you fix it when choices (mine and yours) are not forced on us by our sexual orientations?

    How is a straight orientation less of a temptation than a homosexual one? (Pretending that there is such thing as straight and homosexual temptations and addiction not to be confused by Webster's definition of the word attraction)
     
    #57 Unveiled Artist, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes I am. If the child is raised with the abuse presented as an expression of "love" then they consent because they have been 'conditioned' to accept it. I am not saying that it makes the abuse any less of a crime....only that not all molested children hate their molesters....some are very protective of them. And yes, circumstances tend to foster a cycle of abuse. :(

    Just for clarity....yes, we agree. Abuse of this nature is always the fault of the deviant parent....who are themselves often victims of abuse. Nothing could ever justify it.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Okay. Finished editing. Night guys.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Nothing. [​IMG] Sexual sin in the Bible applies to both genders equally. Immorality is immoral to a Bible believer. If you have no desire to abide by the Creator's laws, then it says you are free to live as you please....for now.

    None. It is your mental orientation that would attract you to your own gender. That is not something you can control....but like all humans who are attracted to another person for whatever reason, we can't always get what we want, if that person is not attracted to you....so you just have to remain single and celebate...it isn't life threatening.

    If you consider the reason why just about all creatures on this planet engage in sex...it isn't just because they find it enjoyable. They are 'wired' to perpetuate their species.....sex is for procreation.....the fact that it is pleasurable is a bonus. Humans are wired for this too.....homosexual sex cannot produce children. There is no noble purpose for it except for pleasure. That is not its primary purpose IMO.

    I used to breed dogs and I can tell you now that if a female was not ready to produce babies, they told the males to buzz off in no uncertain terms. Very few species mate exclusively for pleasure. Only humans possess a moral sense regarding sex.

    I understand that. But again, just because you are attracted to someone, doesn't mean that they will be attracted to you.
    Men can have sex for the sake of it just about any time, anywhere......and it seems as if women have adopted the same attitude these days and wonder why their relationships are shallow and meaningless.
    Fidelity in relationships is often sacrificed for the thrill of experiencing sex with a new partner. If that is what people want, then I believe that they will 'reap what they sow'.

    Sexually transmitted disease is the product of multiple sexual partners. We are designed to be monogamous. Heterosexual sex with a single partner (regardless of frequency) will never result in an STI unless one partner already had the infection to begin with.

    The outcome for male homosexuals is a little different to females because of the placement of the body fluids. Transmission of life is done by the male and only one orifice in the human body was designed to receive sperm. Placing the seed of life in the body's sewerage outlet is offensive to the Creator IMO. Sex is not a right....it is a privilege to be enjoyed by two permanently committed people with a view to creating a family. Even if no children result from the union for some reason, the marriage arrangement is still God's arrangement. It is almost universal, spanning all cultures.

    You can't "fix" the wiring......all you can do is acknowledge the problem and live accordingly. But that only applies if you care about the Creator's laws. If you don't recognize that there is a problem, then why are we having this conversation? :shrug:

    This thread was about transgender people being accepted by the Church of England. If you have no connection with the church, the Bible or its God...what is there to discuss? Do those engaging in illicit sex need his approval or mine?

    This is just rehashing Carlita. Sexual temptations can be experienced anywhere, anytime. Depending on your belief system, you either put a lid on it, or give in to it (gender does not matter).....everyone has a choice.
     
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