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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by The Holy Bottom Burp, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. The Holy Bottom Burp

    The Holy Bottom Burp Active Member

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    OK, so we've exhausted the subject of the OP, but I still cant let you get away with this one. There is something traditionally called the "age of reason", before which the child's mind is regarded to be highly immature. As adults we don't (or we damn well shouldn't) regard such minds to have a great deal of rhyme or reason. They are kids, they come out with nonsense, we all understand that right? We do not project an adult concept of "consent" on to children. To even use the term "consensual" in such a context is wrong, and that is why I reacted in the way I did, it suggests a degree of culpability on the child's part.

    A child is NOT in a position to make an "informed choice", so to say a child 'consents' to sex with an adult is a nonsense. I don't really care what the immature mind of the abused child comes out with in such circumstances, they are victims of predatory adults. Whether they are physically forced into sex acts with an adult, or whether that adult has groomed them to agree to sex acts is an irrelevance. The child is a victim of abuse, that is the focus.

    I hope that explains a bit more with regards to my reaction Deeje, my advice would be to drop the use of the word "consensual" when it comes to paedophilia, it is likely to cause a strong negative reaction in most circles, not just with me!
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Thank you. I only talked with one other person who was blunt about his opinions too. Otherd were more vague. This was back when I practiced christianity at 16 and coming out. Now, I just curious your views.

    What I disagree with is homosexual sex being pleasure oriented. If there is a problem with homosexual wiring; it would be the same as hetero. So if we both ingaged in sex regardless if we pro created or not it would still be a product of wrong wiring sense sexuality isnt black and white. If sexuality, to christians, wasnt seen in a black and white manner, the orientation would be seen as natural and not a temptation. In the bible it doesnt differientate people who are LGBTQ and straight. The picture in my signture, Im sure when they age from their teens sex became less of a need but and eveey now and then affair. Then who is to say when they have sex they are having intercourse as you describe it. These are big assumptions but I do find it odd because I wouldnt judge if a straight couple had to have procreate sex all because they are together. For all I know they could have taken vows of chastity.

    I think if biblical authors knew the science of sexuality and knew who LGBTQ people are compared to those staight people egaged in homosexual behavior, theyd have a different view. Of course behavior would be still a sin but like race and sex it wouldnt be placex on the individual and judged oj the individual because of how one is born. People believed some weird stuff in the WW1 days learning US history in class his semester. If they thought all black people were rapist becauze they were black who knows in other countries what they thought in biblical times.

    To apply laws in the bible on today is odd in itself.

    The only thing I agree with is male sexual body and woman's are designed "primary" for procreation but then thats like saying ky hands are made primary for picking up objects. In and of itself, religion aside, Im sure gay people are being healthy with their actions. Not all have intercourse and its not all based on lustful pleasure. Its not lust all the time. All generalizations really that arent in scripture. Only behavior and maritial laws are.

    But to see the nature of love not defined by peoples parts before peoples hearts, youd have to step from the bible and other like faiths. That gives a fresh view of the definition of homosexuality that is beyond what anyone-straight or gay-does in the bedroom.

    I mean, I dont understand straight and gay intercourse, but I also dont understand the scientific logistics that the former can be based on love and the other lust. The bibke doesnt address this. It address behavior and any person can engage in same sex intercourse.

    The homosexual/christian debate is like christians pulling teeth from scripture and LGBTQ beatings dead horse. LGBTQ identity isnt in scripture (not many christianz care about the people who experience it and define it but put definitions on them that in many dont match, fortunately). On the LGBTQ side I did my debates years ago about it before RF. Im comfortable with my identity, so you can hrow the bible at me and I wont budge.

    Whats sad is that the Church has a program that tries to program people to be straight. Look it up. Its called courage.com. Its religious conversion therapy. I mean, they used to think people with seizures had demons in us and today five years ago I had a seizure and the church (protestant) thought I had the holy spirit. They held me down trying to "get the holy spirit from her" they said.

    I thought those days were gone. I cant imagine back when overseas of the states. And christians apply that today. Shrugs.
     
    #62 Unveiled Artist, Jul 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think you are misconstruing the sense in which I used the word "consensual" here. I am not saying that a child is culpable because they don't resist their abuser......I am saying that not all abused children see their relationship with their abuser as forced, abnormal or criminal. They don't feel violated and will often continue the relationship into adulthood. We are no longer talking about children. But please don't misunderstand what I am saying......all abuse is wrong; its just that some don't see it for what it is. The abuse is more traumatic for those who feel violated or who experience injury as a result of it.....:(

    I agree. Children are the most trusting and vulnerable humans on the planet. They must be protected.....but how do you protect them from their own parents or even siblings or close relatives? The very ones who should be providing care and protection are the ones who betray them.

    Again, I agree. I was not trying to say otherwise. What I was trying to suggest is that for some children, there is little or no trauma. (as in being forced to submit to the abuse) Groomed from a very young age, they do not see any harm in what they do, or in what is done to them. As you said, this is a prime scenario for the cycle to continue. Once they get to an age where they understand the gravity of the situation, they will often defend their abuser. That is a truly sad situation.

    Yes, I understand completely......and hopefully I have made myself and my position a little clearer. I agree with your feelings on this issue. There is no excuse for child abuse......ever. [​IMG]
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Bible is not a book about time...its a book about human nature....and that never changes no matter what time period we live in. That is why its recommendations and guidance is as applicable today as it was when it was written all those centuries ago.

    People are free to step wherever they like. God will never force anyone to do something against their will. But humans have to remember that God will never do anything against his will either. He is the one who can rightfully tell us how to live the life that he gave us. Whether people want to accept it or not...we are what our "parts' dictate. Our hearts are just good at justifying what we want.

    I have no desire to change anything about you. I am merely a messenger.....you can accept what I say or reject it. I have delivered it and my obligation to any reader is fulfilled. Believing in the Bible and its teachings is a personal choice. All are free to dismiss any or all of what the Bible teaches.

    We do not have any such programs because we don't believe that you can 'straighten' out a gay person. All you can do is acknowledge that your orientation is not in line with God's arrangement and act accordingly. We don't see gay people as less than ourselves in any way....we see them as people born with a leaning towards activity that God does not approve of. If they can love God with their whole heart as Jesus said, then they will put him first in their day to day decisions. That is how we view things. How people live is up to them.
     
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  5. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    You say only, but that simply isn't the case. It could be understood that it is your essential and utter ethical failings that produce the view you hold.

    In Christianity there is only a supreme divine being and anything claiming divinity for any other than that being is a liar and a fraud ipso facto.

    That is called a false dichotomy, there are many other choices. I, for instance, choose that Hindus believe in false gods and teachers that have given false teachings that produce false conclusions.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I find that interesting, Deeje. In the OT (it is what it is), when people disobeyed him and/or questioned his authority, they were killed one way or another. It's an ultimatum rather than force. Ultimatums usually bring guilt on people who genuinely don't believe in god, don't believe in his existence, and/or if they know god exist, choose to follow someone else.

    The huge reason why this is true is "if people want to accept it or not" statement. It's putting the guilt and pressure on the individual as if he had something to lose from his choice between god that would unsettle his heart or something else that will uplift the same heart in the same way.

    I also find interesting is the bible is pretty clear cut. "Believe in me or else." It's a blunt and honest command that any person can say no to without feeling guilty if they got to the maturity level of what's best for their spiritual health. When followers try to soften god's words, (god will not force himself-among others in the years I've been around christians) it puts more pressure and confusion. It's probably why there are a lot of seekers because confused people are told that god exists and will not force them to follow him but on the same token if they don't, there are consequences unless they do.

    It i what it is.

    Just a lot of people in general. Mostly Catholics here but it's not pushful. I never had an issue with any Jehovah's Witness I met and they all knew my faith and my orientation.

    The second part, really goes to what I mentioned above. It's nice to see god in that way. Scripture both old and new doesn't portray god (given hence why he is an authority not a friend) that way. If he did, he wouldn't be "god." That's probably why christians, unlike other god-religions, have jesus christ to intercede with god's command from earlier days. Though, his method was more out there than just simply killing someone from looking back or being tempted. It's one thing to use death to punish someone. It's another to use death to save someone.

    You don't have to explain it. Just sayin'

    Than gosh! You don't. I was deeply offended while in the Church when I found that out, told I needed to be chaste, and said I have an illness that prompts me to do things I'm not "supposed" to do. Yet, you have many people know they are gay but don't have the physical attraction between both male and female.

    What I don't understand is people back then didn't know sexuality is on a sliding scale. It's not fixed. Of course, it's not an illness, but like many things we can't understand, we can see the fluctuation (those without bias; there were a lot back in the early 1800s) of sexuality, but can't get away from it being a "behavior" in some manner or fashion.

    This is just the US population in general via their laws, religion, and societal norms. Personal opinions vary, of course. I've never seen a JW had too much to say about it other than what they feel the bible says.

    I'm more for experiences and dialogue. I read the bible, so regurgitation of the bible doesn't help me. It's like reading a history book over again and expecting me to feel a different way about the Nazi situation because you (example) feel it's justified and I should feel the same-yet you won't force it on me but let me decide.

    It's an ultimatum. It is what it is though.

    I don't know many JW, but so far their stance is a bit more straightforward. Catholics are trying to find better ways to describe their view without changing their conservative views. London had it's PRIDE celebration, I think, a week ago and from all the looks of it, they seem to have a larger history with it than the US. At least, also, in the history books it starts off in Britain, london, and European countries before the sodomy laws were adopted in the states.

    It's all based on behavior. We like to say it's "sexual orientation" but I don't think many christians understand the difference only when they compare it to the bible. Some christians do, many (and I know many) really don't. Not because they don't want to, just many reasons from being uncomfortable, straight ignorance, bias, or for some they just don't want to be around us.

    It's sad. I remember we talked about this before but your views are always respected.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can you tell me who is in a better position to issue an ultimatum than the Creator? Believing that he doesn't exist, doesn't make him go away. It does not alter his sovereign right to dictate the terms of our existence. He doesn't need us.....we need him to continue living. I believe that.

    Those who opposed him in the past came to grief....there is the warning. Those who obey his reasonable commands will experience his blessing. I have been a recipient.

    Ultimatums are usually a warning that if you do 'such and such' "this" will happen.....but if you do the opposite, there is a consequence for that as well. We are free to choose the course, so if we know what the consequences are before we take an action....who do we blame when they come crashing down on our heads? :shrug:

    I see from the Bible, that humans have everything to lose if they do not except the terms of a very reasonable ultimatum. People can choose not to believe...but that doesn't alter the outcome.

    Do you think that humans know what's best for their spiritual health, more than their Maker does? If they think so, then they are free to make that choice. We decide what we want to do with our lives.

    I believe that this is how God separates people....the "sheep" from the "goats". The sheep choose to serve their Creator and do not find his ultimatum the least bit intimidating or unreasonable. The goats have no interest in toeing any line but their own. Its all about doing God's will as opposed to doing your will.

    I don't see that as the case at all. Abraham was called "God's friend". (James 2:23)

    Jesus said 'if you have seen me, you have seen the Father also'. He wasn't saying that he was God, but rather that they were so alike that he represented his Father's personality exactly. It is Jesus, along with his angelic forces who comes to execute judgment on the present system of things, so he carries out his Father's commands.

    If Jesus was God, we would need a mediator between us and him too. (1 Timothy 2:5)

    The Creator does not see death as we do. He has the power to reverse death...we do not. If he puts someone to death, it doesn't have to be permanent. There is no hell to send anyone to....no purgatory, no limbo, and no heaven for the majority of mankind. The Bible does not teach that the dead live on somewhere else. That is an idea that the devil planted to support the first lie he told the woman...."you surely will not die".

    Unless we understand why God has handled things the way he has, nothing will make sense. How everything fits into the big picture is amazing!

    I have told you what I believe the Bible says about the issue of homosexuality and transgenderism. In today's world, there has to be clear definitions and guidelines....there is no room for ambiguity or compromise for the sake of acceptance.

    People can read the Bible till the cows come home......it will be just words on a page unless you know what you are reading.

    I have no doubt that many gay people are just as nice as anyone else, but I would not be comfortable around those who do not share my moral values. Its like being on another planet.....not somewhere I want to live.

    And I respect anyone's right to make their own choices in these things. Informed choices are the only ones worth making.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Remember, I come from an outsider's perspective. I've never been indoctrinated and raised into a religion nor religious environment. I've only been "truly" christian four years out of my adult life. So, I have two perspectives on this.

    From a christian point of view (and other god-religions), of course god. Objectively, no one has the right to make an ultimatum because regardless if you're spirit, human, alien, or bug everyone has the right to made decisions without being indirectly forced to take one side without consequences if one decided otherwise.

    -

    He does not exist. Everything does what it does without our knowledge of how and why (if one wants to ask; I never have) things work in life. To me, it's not about belief. I just got that when I went into Christianity. To me, everything was about facts, what I experience, and what I can judge is true and what is not. If a math teacher told me two and two is four, I don't take it at face value. I ask how it does and I want to see how it does. Spirituality is not like that. I had a direct experience when my grandmother communicated with me. I did not with god and with jesus only through his sacraments not as an abstract person because I do not know him.

    This has nothing to do with belief. We just have different realities.

    This is the ultimatum. I don't understand how you don't see how it affects people negatively. The love you experience, that same love could be a curse to someone else. Everyone doesn't experience the same feeling with they "experience spirituality." To put anyone under our eye glasses is very bias. It's an opinion or personal perspective. Not a fact.

    Exactly.

    If you choose christ, you will be saved and have the benefits and blessings of god. If you do not accept him, you will not be saved and suffer consequences for your choices. So the seeker is either coerced to believe in god because he doesn't want to suffer the consequences. Or, he is told he has an option to deny christ but never saying "you have the option to deny and you can still live a highly spiritual life on earth and after death." The option is not available to him in an indoctrinated environment.

    You just can't see how this affects people because you experience good things from christ and his body. Not everyone experience the same thing from god himself and his body. Hard to believe, yes; and, it's the truth.

    This is my whole point. I see the affects of this "reasonable ultimatum" on a lot of youth on RF and in person. It tears people inside because if they don't think in these terms, there are consequences. They have to mature to a point to separate their beliefs and values from those they love and people they been around for years. It takes years to do this. It took me two years an I've only been "indoctrinated" for four years. Though, unlike seekers, I liked my years as a Catholic.

    Nothing is reasonable when it causes people pain.

    If I believed in a Maker, no. Since I do not, yes, of course. We are the only ones that can decide for ourselves and within our communities. I value freedom of expression, equality, and having one's own identity. Being a spirit, alien, human, or bug doesn't change that.

    That's the problem (IMO). There are no goats. This hurts people when they see separation like this and taught that morality has to be an either/or scenario. It's not in all cultures but most definitely in America. It's not in all religions, but most definitely in Christianity.

    You see the maker's work over people's pain. I rather address people's pain rather than submit an watch the goats suffer. We have different values.

    I give you that. I don't agree that a friend would tell not ask another friend to sacrifice his child in obedience. I never heard of that type of friend. However, in your view, god's definition would be different than mine. I see human suffering worse than disobeying a creator. You feel otherwise.

    I agree that jesus isn't god. Actually, I learned that from JW and it made perfect sense to me. Studying the bible confirmed it. If I believed in god, jesus wouldn't' be an intermediary. People fuss about the saints but they don't flinch an eye over jesus. If jesus were god, then I'd understand. Since he is not, just as a saint, his being an intermediary does not mean he needs to be worshiped as god.

    Death is death. When you have an ultimatum and a consequence for not choosing god, regardless of what you call it, it's a punishment. Whether one calls it death or not is up to them.

    But using death/punishment/sacrifice/pain whatever to save people is completely opposite of how I think. Usually people die for others when they have no choice. When they do have a choice, I do not agree with that.

    In general, I mentioned how people see homosexuality. Our opinions vary, of course. Regardless, scripture defines us like X. We identify as Y. We can't change scripture physically. However, if we don't want to live by the definition in one book as opposed to the definition in our heart, of course we have that choice. There should not be a consequence for not believing in scripture's definitions. Since there is, according to scripture, it is not a freedom of choice. It's not freedom. It's an ultimatum.

    Yes, I experienced those words and lived them. That beats "know what you are reading." I love books, I really do. It doesn't compare to the sacraments of christ, just sayin'

    That's your right. My friend compared homosexuals to murderers. If I were in her shoes, I wouldn't want to be around murderers since we don't share the same views. Though, homosexuality isn't an action (unlike a murder would be so because he murdered) so basically you're uncomfortable with being around people unlike yourself. I don't understand that.

    Thank you... class time.
     
    #68 Unveiled Artist, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It's like saying that your government has no right to make laws and enforce them. They are mere humans, yet we have no choice but to obey them, or suffer the consequences. Do people get that? There is no higher authority than the Creator. He will mete out the consequences, just as he has stated them. Not believing in him will not alter that.

    What religious system exists without beliefs? It isn't just Christianity that has them.

    Just sayin'.....but did it ever occur to you that it might not have been your grandmother who communicated with you, but a spirit impersonating her? Evil spirits exist in all religions for a reason. The Bible explains who they are, how they operate, and what their objectives are. They can pretend to be someone close to you....but wait until you try to leave them, once you know the truth......then they will punish you and show you who they really are.

    We definitely have different realities in many areas of life, no doubt about that. If you were waiting for Jesus to communicate with you directly.....he wasn't ever going to. He communicates with us, not by any 'sacraments' but by means of God's spirit, through the written word. All we need to know is written for our instruction and preserved down to our day.

    The church is about 'ritual', not knowledge.......about 'performance', not practical help for the flock. Shepherds are supposed to care for their flocks by giving them sound counsel from God's word, not telling them to recite meaningless repetitions of words after sitting in a box. I don't think you understand how far removed Roman Catholicism is from the things that Jesus taught.

    It is....but again, who has a better right to issue an ultimatum than the Creator.....as the one who made this earth and everything on it?

    We believe that he is going to introduce his rulership back to this earth in the near future. As the rightful 'Landlord' of planet Earth, he has authority to set the tenancy agreement. If we abide by the terms, we get to reside in that kingdom, under his care, in peace and complete security. All we have to do is live according to the rules. If we have no desire to do that, then we will not be forced to live under conditions that do not suit us....governed by a God we don't think is real. An eviction notice has been posted and all of the terms are clearly stated. We make a choice about our own future by accepting or rejecting those terms. Is that somehow unfair? I don't see how.

    You don't seem to understand that it is meant to divide people...."sheep from goats". Do we know what camp we personally are in? There are only two, so we are all in either one or the other. Jesus is the judge of that.

    It is what separates us....because its suppose to. (Matthew 10:32-39)

    Your own personal experience is yours.....as my experience is mine. We are all shaped by our nature and nurture.....but God is a reader of hearts and if he "draws" you, it is hard to resist him. (John 6:44)
    If you are not "drawn" it is because you don't have the qualities that God is looking for in the future citizen of his kingdom. This will be the place where God's will is done, "on earth as it is in heaven." I personally look forward to that life....I don't know what life you look forward to? :shrug:

    Not everyone was going to...that is the point of the preaching that Christ commanded for his disciples. (Matthew 24:14) No one will be able to say that no one told them about this outcome. Like all natural disasters, warning is issued but not everyone believes or heeds it....but because they were warned, their lives are in their own hands.

    According to scripture there are only two categories of people who qualify as "goats".

    2 Thessalonians 1:5-10: To those suffering as Christians, the apostle Paul wrote.....

    "This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.
    6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones..."


    So it's "those who do not know God" because they don't want to know him...and 'those who know him, but fail to obey' Christ's teachings that came from his Father. "Everlasting destruction" is pretty permanent.

    Jesus already said that "few" are on the road to life.....now you know why. :( (Matthew 7:13-14)
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you understand the reason for the request, you would see it as a real test of their friendship. This was not a relationship of equals, but a real connection with God in the heart of this man. Nothing was more real or important to Abraham than his God.
    There was illustrative value in the request, since it was never God's intention for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. It was an illustration of how hard it is for a Father to sacrifice his beloved son, (picturing God's willingness to sacrifice Jesus) and how willing the son was to be sacrificed. (picturing Jesus' willingness to give his life voluntarily for us.)

    I see human suffering as something brought about by rebels, not God. I see obeying God as alleviating human suffering, not adding to it.

    Death is a sleep from which God can awaken whomever he chooses. Its not the end of life unless we choose a course that gives God no reason to restore our life.

    It is an ultimatum as every law we uphold is an ultimatum. We have freedom to choose the course, but we also know what the consequences are in advance. Some choose the consequence because they think they are worth what they want to do. Some think that they will get away with not making any choice....just sitting on some kind of make believe fence somewhere in the middle. But Jesus said that whoever was not for him was against him....so there is no fence...no middle ground. God is forcing us to choose because his will has to prevail...otherwise he is not God.

    How do you define "the sacraments of Christ"?

    We all choose our friends basically because of shared interests and views. If there is too much of a difference in those things it can obviously lead to conflicts. Many friendships have been trashed over politics and religion.

    Comparing homosexuals to murderers is a bit harsh.....murderers take lives for different reasons....some out of uncontrolled anger or revenge...some by accident.....some from defending themselves from an attack. All are judged on the individual circumstances. Not all have the same penalty.
    Homosexuality has no impact on being a Christian unless you break God's moral laws which apply to all, regardless of gender. It is not 'legal' according to the Bible (God's Laws) to have sexual relations with someone to whom you are not legally married.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Actually, it's more like the government has no right to give an ultimatum. We have no right to say "You have a choice to do X. However, if you do not make choice X, you suffer the consequences. If you do make choice X, we will reward you." Why make it a choice when the consequence of choosing otherwise would bring consequences on the person who was asked to make the decision. Free will with fine print.

    Our US government has done that all through history. It has not made our country better, though.

    -

    We have a choice to obey the government or not. Many people get away with what the law considers crimes. For example, trying to remember her name, but there was a women way back that got arrested for taking her money from her stocks because she got word from her friend or co-worker about the risk of her investment. It caused no harm to the stock market that would affect our economy. It had no killing involved. She didn't lie. It was just our governments laws. She made the choice to save her investment and instead of letting her keep her money, the government arrested her.

    I don't know about other countries, but the US is fickle. I get your point though.

    -

    It's not a freedom of choice and benefit when a person is consequences for not accepting god. That's like the government offering me a 100 dollar paycheck, and I know it came from many crimes in our politics, I say no, and they punish me for it. Yet, they say "you had the choice to say no" as if that choice was a good thing. It's not.

    There are many religions without god. Thousands of religions without the god you are familiar with. Beliefs and knowledge are two different things. Do you know god exists are do you believe he does?

    I've experienced the spirits; I know they exist. I don't need to believe anymore, because I have no need for faith and "what if I'm wrong" feeling. I can walk away but I can't deny the experience and fact of it happening.

    Many religious see their beliefs as facts. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. But like your beliefs, I believe my beliefs are facts not beliefs. Unless we are talking pass each other?

    Of course not. I'd never ask that question of you "did it ever occur to you that it was not god that you experienced since satan can appear as an angel of light?" That's rude from how I see it.

    People do things some call evil. People aren't evil, it's just their behavior we dislike because it's against our morals. The behaviors in and of itself is not evil. This is the same with spirits. Spirits aren't evil. You have spirits that are not in your best interest that I am familiar with immediately in a specific environment or around a person; but, I'd never call them evil. I just avoid them.

    I understand your point. I just don't see how you'd see an evil spirit from a positive spirit. That's like asking you "what if god were evil but you were fooled by a positive experienced you thought was god but was not."

    Just because I don't believe in god doesn't give me personally the right to question another person's faith. (Sorry, RF....not your everyday atheist :p)

    He already has through the sacraments of christ. We have different realities. I will never change my mind on the sacraments. That's like changing my mind with my grandmother all because I don't want to talk to her anymore. Jesus is a spirit just as everyone else. We both believe he isn't god; so, I personally don't see the difference other than I don't know him as I know my family in spirit.

    We severely disagree on the Church. I've gone to Church, what, 8 years and confirmed 4. I had no qualms about it. Christianity didn't make me have ill feelings about other people's churches and their members since we are all part of the body of christ (when I practiced) and as such, I have no right to say you're not christian than a JW shouldn't say I was not.

    I would say I guess you have to experience it. At least in an Orthodox Church, at least. There are only Roman Catholics where I live. I came from a baptist and nondenominational bible-belt family; so my perspective of the Church isn't how you all make it seem.

    It's like everyone is evil in the church or something. "Love the sinner hate the sin" doesn't work. The Church is a Catholic Christian's identity because they are one body.

    We disagree here.

    No one has. Doesn't matter who that person is, his role, whether he's a fly, human, or bodhisattva. No one.

    I never had an opinion about it. A lot of things in the bible disturb me because of it's history. Not just Catholic but all around history. I'd have to go back and study it beyond the spiritual understanding. Spirituality you don't really need to know the nooks and crannies. I'm not familiar with theology to discuss the knowledge of it. But many protestants value knowledge of scripture. As a former Catholic, I never got that. It's in christ not scripture.

    There are no goats. That mindset harms many many people. It's your belief but I don't know if you see how much that view hurts people's spirits.

    We are both human, same sensations, same ability to love, and all of that. Our perspectives and interpretations are different. The love itself is not. Unless you're an alien or?

    We don't share experiences and interpretations of realities. Because we are human, if someone stubbed my toe I'd feel pain just as you would likewise. Our interpretations are different, our pain is the same (taking out the severity and semantics of it).

    The reason why I don't have it is because I outright rejected it when I left the Church. That is different than someone never being drawn in the first place.

    I trust what you say is in scriptures. I don't have a reason to doubt you.

    That's pretty negative thinking.

    Those who do not know him, are ignorant not goats.

    Those who know him and decide to walk away are exercising their freedom of choice which was not murder.

    Those who do not want to know him most have good reasons why they don't. No one should hold them against their choice. They didn't murder anyone.

    The bible does speak about people who out right reject christ. When you haven't known christ father, what about christ are really objecting to other than his words. That doesn't mean one isn't drawn by his spirit. They just realize his spirit speaks of someone they do not believe in. It's like finding your long lost brother, mending relations, and he tells you that you your mother isn't actually your mother, you have the choice to believe him or say it's not true. Though, regardless, you shouldn't be held accountable for it.

    I know. Sounds sad. I actually find it alright for a few to know. People won't have to lie to their spirit at the expense of trying to believe a god exist. It's easier to say honestly, "hey, I didn't believe. Whatever happens, happens" and live a good life then be miserable to live someone else's truth and not one's own.
     
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  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The reason doesn't excuse the request. It's not against the law to defend oneself by murder if in immediate threat. The victim took a life regardless. I don't excuse the murder just because the law says otherwise.

    They are

    Baptism (water and spirit), confirmation (saying jesus is lord and savior), communion (The body of christ consuming a sacrificial meal to be resurrected as a body by a blessed meal with its purpose to join the body and make christ present-more than one, he is there type of thing). Confession (Repentance to god). and then you have marriage vocation vows and anointing of the sick as when jesus said something of he washed the feet of a woman, so others to as well. A act of charity and humility.

    True. Just find it a bit odd. Maybe just the effeminate men (for example)? or just homosexual in general once they come out to you?

    Thank you for the first part. Yeah, I knew her almost twenty years went to Mass with her about ten, and didn't know she thought of me that way.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think this statement sums things up quite accurately.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Shrugs. It's late anyway. Have a long day tomorrow.
     
  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    You are welcome to your views as I am welcome to mine. They are not going to change by bare assertions for either one of us. For many years I have eschewed making such bare assertions in a forum, but I am tired of fundamentalist religions glibly asserting their faith claims and scripture quotes as if they are truths without need of defense and everybody else has to accede to them. So from now on, every time such assertions are made, I will make my own assertions from my Hindu beliefs and scriptures. Those who come to preach will be preached back to, in ample amounts.
     
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