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Transgender People Welcomed by The Church of England

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
I think its important to understand that humans are not perfect in this world. Some have defects in their vision, their hearing, their physical form, their mental health. I see homosexuality as just another defect, no worse than being born with any other abnormality. Some people are born with wiring problems, hormonal issues and brain chemistry imbalances.....its not the defect, but how it manifests that is the issue, (scripturally speaking.)

We all know that pedophilia is something abhorrent to those who aren't pedophiles. The sexual abuse of children is something that is unacceptable to those who do not suffer with the disorder......yet it is accepted as normal among those with the disorder even though it is punishable by law. Can a pedophile stop being a pedophile? I don't think so......but they can learn to control their leanings because what they do is abhorrent to others....an offense to the law and to God.
Describing peoples sexuality as a 'defect' could and should be seen to be regressive and offensive Deeje. Throwing in a few lines about paedophiles? Ditto. Paedophilia is about the abuse of children, not consensual sex between adults. Please don't imply there is a similarity. I'm not LGBT myself, though I can imagine anyone who read what you wrote who is, will find it offensive and regressive.
Just pointing it out gal, if you want to persuade people who are "different" to you there is a home for them within your religion, you might want to think about rephrasing some of your language. At the moment it needs a little work!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Describing peoples sexuality as a 'defect' could and should be seen to be regressive and offensive Deeje. Throwing in a few lines about paedophiles? Ditto. Paedophilia is about the abuse of children, not consensual sex between adults. Please don't imply there is a similarity. I'm not LGBT myself, though I can imagine anyone who read what you wrote who is, will find it offensive and regressive.
Just pointing it out gal, if you want to persuade people who are "different" to you there is a home for them within your religion, you might want to think about rephrasing some of your language. At the moment it needs a little work!

I am simply stating a point of view from a Biblical, Christian perspective. We have many homosexuals who have found a home in our ranks.....but any church that tells you that 'practicing' homosexuals are now somehow acceptable to God is not telling the truth....they are compromising for the sake of not losing backsides on pews and money in their coffers. Those who uphold what our God commands find homosexual activity as offensive as he does.....so are you going to pit our offense against theirs as if it is somehow more acceptable now that so many have ditched God's rules? Seriously...people need to get over the whole offense thing.
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We cop more flack for less offense than anyone....but do we go and publicly protest about it with rallies in the streets?

I really have no need to offend anyone....what people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business....all I am doing is stating something that is considered politically incorrect in today's world.....I am not advocating for homosexuality to be an offense under man's law. I am merely stating what the Bible's stance is on homosexual activity.

Christians do not hold a different view about those things because God doesn't. If he is considered to be 'regressive and offensive', then I stand with him and I will not compromise. To me all humans have a choice to obey God or to disobey him in all things. The last time I looked, refraining from having sex was not life threatening. I believe that sacrificing valuable things for God is admirable. You are free to disagree.

The point about pedophilia is that it is a mental aberration. It is not "natural" to want to have sex with young children, or to get sexually aroused by child porn. Homosexual sex is not "natural" either....it is perverted in God's eyes. It is not "natural" because the whole purpose of marital sex is to produce children....the fact that it is pleasurable is a bonus. It was only sanctioned within the confines of legal marriage. Same sex marriage will never be "legal" in God's eyes because he is the author of marriage and he set the rules....he does not change.

I understand that being gay is not a choice, but having sex is. Homosexuals can be Christians, but like heterosexuals, they cannot engage in immoral sexual relations. If a person wants to practice homosexual acts, they can do so....what they can't do is claim to be Christians. You can be one or the other, but not both. Its a bit like evolution and creation....you cannot combine them either, you have to choose one. Anything else is a compromise.

It is not just practicing homosexuals who are condemned in the Bible...it is people who are sexually immoral.....regardless of their gender. All sexually immoral people will answer to him in the big picture. (Revelation 21:7-8)
The same rules apply equally to heterosexuals. God is not forcing anyone to obey him, but gives all humans a choice.....as with all choices, there are consequences. We choose.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I think its important to understand that humans are not perfect in this world. Some have defects in their vision, their hearing, their physical form, their mental health. I see homosexuality as just another defect, no worse than being born with any other abnormality. Some people are born with wiring problems, hormonal issues and brain chemistry imbalances.....its not the defect, but how it manifests that is the issue, (scripturally speaking.)

We all know that pedophilia is something abhorrent to those who aren't pedophiles. The sexual abuse of children is something that is unacceptable to those who do not suffer with the disorder......yet it is accepted as normal among those with the disorder even though it is punishable by law. Can a pedophile stop being a pedophile? I don't think so......but they can learn to control their leanings because what they do is abhorrent to others....an offense to the law and to God.

Becoming a worshipper of the God of the Bible, brings with it the notion of sacrifice. What does it mean to "sacrifice" something to God? The Israelites knew what sacrifice was.....they had to offer the very best they had, to God. Not that he needed what they were offering, but by the act itself, God was able to see how much the individual making the sacrifice, loved him.

I believe that it is no different with homosexuality. In the Bible, sex is reserved for a married couple with a view to producing a family from that union. This was an arrangement reserved exclusively for a husband and wife, not same sex couples. It is homosexual acts that God finds unnatural and perverted. They are not designed to produce children.

God does not hate homosexuals but he respects those who can overcome their natural inclinations....born with defects as children of Adam.

If a person loves God more than they love themselves or anyone else, they will sacrifice what is valuable to them, knowing that ultimately a reward is reserved for them because of that sacrifice. The larger the sacrifice...the bigger the reward.

For those who care more about what "they" want, God gives them the freedom to do as they please.....there is just no reward because one was not sought. Free will can be exercised by all but all decisions have outcomes. If you choose the course, you choose the outcome. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
This thread has nothing to do with homosexuality. Transgender/transsexual people can be of any sexual orientation.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
We cop more flack for less offense than anyone....but do we go and publicly protest about it with rallies in the streets?.
Steady on Deeje, it was just 50 years ago that homosexuality was decriminalised where I live, the UK. I don't recall similar institutionalised prejudice against religion. In fact it was doubtless down to our religious heritage that those stupid laws were thought of in the first place. This is a post Christian country, the times are a changing for the better!
I really have no need to offend anyone....what people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business....
Correct! Never think it a bit "odd" that your god takes such a keen interest in what consenting adults get up to in the bedroom? What position, what genders are involved? Who does what to whom? I'm not being flippant, it really is a very odd thing when you think about it.
The point about pedophilia is that it is a mental aberration. It is not "natural" to want to have sex with young children, or to get sexually aroused by child porn. Homosexual sex is not "natural" either....it is perverted in God's eyes. It is not "natural" because the whole purpose of marital sex is to produce children....the fact that it is pleasurable is a bonus. It was only sanctioned within the confines of legal marriage.
I didn't even make a dent did I? You still don't see how incredibly insulting and offensive it is to bring up paedophilia right? Abusing children has nothing to do with what consenting adults get up to in the bedroom.
Still, at least you belong to an organisation that is squeaky clean in that respect, all following "god's law" right? BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Secret database protects paedophiles
The Real Reason Jehovah’s Witnesses Cover Up Pedophilia in Their Religion
Watchtower Child Abuse Paedophile Policy and related court cases
Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia
To be honest I think there is a really unhealthy obsession with sex in the Abrahamic religions, probably brought about by the excessively prudish and uptight attitudes towards what should be one of the real pleasures in life. I wouldn't trust an acquaintance professing to be a Christian of whatever stripe to be left alone with a child anymore than I would a stranger off the street. It means nothing.

Same sex marriage will never be "legal" in God's eyes because he is the author of marriage and he set the rules....he does not change.
Oh he changes Deeje, he changes with every generation when you look back at the old religious literature (including JW literature), when you look at history. You just don't see it because you've been bitten bad by the religion bug.

I understand that being gay is not a choice, but having sex is. Homosexuals can be Christians, but like heterosexuals, they cannot engage in immoral sexual relations.
Well at least you admitted that much! Yours views are somewhat predictable, and I'm sure you think Jesus will be coming back any day soon to end all this "depravity", but the truth is attitudes about sex and sexuality are changing in a significant way in the younger generation. They are the future, they are the ones who will hold power in the coming years, they are the ones who will be filling the churches and the temples, even the Kingdom Halls! Expect to see more changes!
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think its important to understand that humans are not perfect in this world. Some have defects in their vision, their hearing, their physical form, their mental health. I see homosexuality as just another defect, no worse than being born with any other abnormality. Some people are born with wiring problems, hormonal issues and brain chemistry imbalances.....its not the defect, but how it manifests that is the issue, (scripturally speaking.)

We all know that pedophilia is something abhorrent to those who aren't pedophiles. The sexual abuse of children is something that is unacceptable to those who do not suffer with the disorder......yet it is accepted as normal among those with the disorder even though it is punishable by law. Can a pedophile stop being a pedophile? I don't think so......but they can learn to control their leanings because what they do is abhorrent to others....an offense to the law and to God.

Becoming a worshipper of the God of the Bible, brings with it the notion of sacrifice. What does it mean to "sacrifice" something to God? The Israelites knew what sacrifice was.....they had to offer the very best they had, to God. Not that he needed what they were offering, but by the act itself, God was able to see how much the individual making the sacrifice, loved him.

I believe that it is no different with homosexuality. In the Bible, sex is reserved for a married couple with a view to producing a family from that union. This was an arrangement reserved exclusively for a husband and wife, not same sex couples. It is homosexual acts that God finds unnatural and perverted. They are not designed to produce children.

God does not hate homosexuals but he respects those who can overcome their natural inclinations....born with defects as children of Adam.

If a person loves God more than they love themselves or anyone else, they will sacrifice what is valuable to them, knowing that ultimately a reward is reserved for them because of that sacrifice. The larger the sacrifice...the bigger the reward.

For those who care more about what "they" want, God gives them the freedom to do as they please.....there is just no reward because one was not sought. Free will can be exercised by all but all decisions have outcomes. If you choose the course, you choose the outcome. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Any God that finds consensual homosexual love and sex perverted is a false God not worth worshiping. Period.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I was not even aware that the Church of England needed a policy on transgenders. But anything that levels the playing field a bit more is welcome.


We certainly do not have sex inspections at the door...everyone is welcome to come and worship...
In fact that is the Law in the UK.

Unlike other churches, the Church of England is there for the cure of all souls, by statute and enforced in law. No one can be turned away.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This thread has nothing to do with homosexuality. Transgender/transsexual people can be of any sexual orientation.

Trans-gender people blur the lines when it comes to sexual orientation.

In our town we have a prominent business person who publicly announced that he was changing his gender from male to female. He was a married man with children. He has had the surgery and hormone treatment has feminized him somewhat.....but he just looks like a man in drag.

It was his decision but people just didn't understand how he could do that to his wife and children. Imagine the bullying that his kids have had to endure....one is in High School, the others in Primary School. His wife looks terrible. Is it really all about the transgender/transsexual person? The fall-out from this decision has ruined his marriage, caused huge embarrassment for his wife and children and almost ruined his business......was it worth it? Hasn't he just swapped one bad set of circumstances for another? How can he/she be happy when no one else is? Can you have real happiness by stealing it away from others?
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Steady on Deeje, it was just 50 years ago that homosexuality was decriminalised where I live, the UK.

Australia was about the same. Some states slower than others.
A definitive timeline of LGBT+ rights in Australia

I don't recall similar institutionalised prejudice against religion. In fact it was doubtless down to our religious heritage that those stupid laws were thought of in the first place. This is a post Christian country, the times are a changing for the better!

I wasn't referring to prejudice against religion, (the likes of which we commonly see in atheism today,) but prejudice against JW's, especially during the war years.
Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Correct! Never think it a bit "odd" that your god takes such a keen interest in what consenting adults get up to in the bedroom? What position, what genders are involved? Who does what to whom? I'm not being flippant, it really is a very odd thing when you think about it.

Since God is the one who created the human body, I feel that he has a right to decide what should, and shouldn't be done with it. Sexual sin was addressed quite specifically in the Law of Moses. Any form of illicit sex was punishable. I cannot think of any scripture that dictates position but I do see very specific laws about sexual activity as well as homosexual practices.

You still don't see how incredibly insulting and offensive it is to bring up paedophilia right?

No I don't. I see both as an abnormal orientation. Both are based on unnatural desires. To me both are simply wiring problems.
Child sexual abuse can be consenting too. Many children are abused by their own parent(s) from a very young age and some even enjoy it, not having known any different. The consent doesn't make it right.

Abusing children has nothing to do with what consenting adults get up to in the bedroom.

The transmission of life is a sacred thing to Bible believers. To abuse the privilege is not something that God approves of in our opinion.
This is simply our view and we will not change it to gain the approval of the world alienated from the Creator's standards. We are not about to ditch them any time soon.....but we will not force them on anyone either.

Still, at least you belong to an organisation that is squeaky clean in that respect, all following "god's law" right?

No institution with access to children is immune to pedophilia. The way it was dealt with in times past was a reflection of the times and the appalling way in which these crimes were tried in the justice system. Thankfully today, we have things in place to protect victims and a legal system that tries to make prosecution less painful for the victims than the actual offence.......which was not the case in the past.

To be honest I think there is a really unhealthy obsession with sex in the Abrahamic religions, probably brought about by the excessively prudish and uptight attitudes towards what should be one of the real pleasures in life.

That real pleasure can only be enjoyed with a clean conscience. For Christians, marriage is only between opposite sex couples. (Matthew 19:4-6)

Oh he changes Deeje, he changes with every generation when you look back at the old religious literature (including JW literature), when you look at history. You just don't see it because you've been bitten bad by the religion bug.

Some things will never change and God's high standard of morality is one of them.

Well at least you admitted that much! Yours views are somewhat predictable, and I'm sure you think Jesus will be coming back any day soon to end all this "depravity", but the truth is attitudes about sex and sexuality are changing in a significant way in the younger generation.

I only have to look at the morals of this generation to know that they are appalling. But I guess that happens when kids are taught that they are just animals......behaving like them just naturally follows.

One of the most powerful empires in the world fell because of its own depravity. It destroyed the family unit and thereby destroyed the foundations upon which its civilization was built. Rome was not conquered, but disintegrated from within. The same will happen with today's world. Very few children these days are raised unitedly by the people who gave birth to them. Children often have a warped view about what a family actually is. The fabric of society is unraveling with each new generation. If things continue as they are, I think further collapse is inevitable.

They are the future, they are the ones who will hold power in the coming years, they are the ones who will be filling the churches and the temples, even the Kingdom Halls! Expect to see more changes!

You don't know much about JW's do you? We have one standard and it is not dictated by the world....it is dictated by the scriptures. We don't care what the world thinks....we care only about what God thinks.

If things change, it is only streamlining of procedure, or forms of study using less paper and ink and more internet technology. God's standards will never change and we will never expect them to....regardless of what the world does. (1 John 2:15-17)
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member

Child sexual abuse can be consenting too
. Many children are abused by their own parent(s) from a very young age and some even enjoy it, not having known any different. The consent doesn't make it right.
Yeah, I've skipped some stuff to get to this statement. What are you talking about? Have you never heard of the 'age of reason'? The child can be just as culpable in your world? Toddling around looking all sexy and provocative right? Well done for enabling any paedophile who happens to read to read this. If I was a predatory paedophile right now I'd be thinking of signing up with the JWs. Any age restrictions? When does the child become culpable? Three years old? Five years old? Seven maybe? Does the Watchtower have guidelines based on the bible?
Deeje, I thought you were a nice person, a bit misguided and blinkered by religion perhaps, but basically decent. Now I'm not so sure, if you walk around with perverse ideas like that in your head. Maybe you are flailing around, desperately trying to defend your religion, saying stuff you know to be wrong on every level. I do hope so.
Damn sure I wouldn't hire a JW as a baby sitter having read that though.

No institution with access to children is immune to pedophilia. The way it was dealt with in times past was a reflection of the times and the appalling way in which these crimes were tried in the justice system. Thankfully today, we have things in place to protect victims and a legal system that tries to make prosecution less painful for the victims than the actual offence.......which was not the case in the past.
Things in place after the cover ups were exposed? Damn right there is a "legal system", a secular one that imprisons sick perverts who hide in religious organisations like yours. Great thing secular government isn't it?

From that Wiki article:

In June 2012 the Superior Court of Alameda, California, ordered the Watch Tower Society to pay US$21 million in punitive damages, in addition to compensatory damages, after finding that the Society's policy to not disclose child abuse history of a member to parents in the congregation or to report abuse to authorities contributed to the sexual abuse of a nine-year-old girl.[14] In April 2015, the appeal court partially upheld the trial court's verdict, ordering that the Watch Tower Society pay compensatory damages amounting to US$2.8 million, but concluded that the congregation had no duty to warn the parents or members about the child abuse history of other members. The case was settled for an undisclosed sum while on appeal to the supreme court of California. In 2016 a UK judge upheld a ruling against the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect a victim of child sexual abuse, and the supreme court rejected an attempt by the Watch Tower Society to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the organisation's charity handles allegations of abuse. This was the culmination of two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals in which "WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission's inquiry".[1]



You don't know much about JW's do you? We have one standard and it is not dictated by the world....it is dictated by the scriptures. We don't care what the world thinks....we care only about what God thinks.
Tell that to the victims of child abuse in your religious organisation who grew up as "damaged goods" thanks to the cover ups. Makes me wonder what else goes on behind closed doors in the Kingdom Halls, but Deeje, if I ever had the slightest inkling of curiosity to visit one of your churches, you have now utterly killed it. Not interested in an organisation that enables child abusers, and covers up abuse, unless it is to report any offenders hiding in it to the authorities.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
My two cents on this - it's taking quite a while for the churches to come to the realization that people don't like being bad-mouthed and left feeling like they are verbally/emotionally assailed. The "but I only say this because I want to save you" bit was always just a sour taste in the mouth of anyone not already blinded by the beliefs - and the people being admonished (for doing something that arguably doesn't hurt anyone) were not shy about telling the church so. But apparently perception is reality only if "God" didn't already tell you what to perceive.

And I feel it is only pretending if you want to say the move is about "love" and "acceptance" and has nothing to do with trying to keep those churches full and therefore functioning. In the end I am not sure their motives make it truly a "step in the right direction," even though I feel that it certainly is at face value.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yeah, I've skipped some stuff to get to this statement. What are you talking about? Have you never heard of the 'age of reason'? The child can be just as culpable in your world? Toddling around looking all sexy and provocative right? Well done for enabling any paedophile who happens to read to read this. If I was a predatory paedophile right now I'd be thinking of signing up with the JWs. Any age restrictions? When does the child become culpable? Three years old? Five years old? Seven maybe? Does the Watchtower have guidelines based on the bible?

Are you serious? You totally misinterpreted what I said.

You said that child abuse was different to what consenting homosexual adults do in private. My point was that consent doesn't make it right. If the child consents to the abuse because they have been raised with it, still makes it just as wrong.

For heaven's sake, don't misquote me or attribute your own sick interpretation to what I said. You talk about offensive! I thought you were a fair minded person until this exchange, but now I see the real person, wanting to assume bad motives where there are none.

Deeje, I thought you were a nice person, a bit misguided and blinkered by religion perhaps, but basically decent. Now I'm not so sure, if you walk around with perverse ideas like that in your head. Maybe you are flailing around, desperately trying to defend your religion, saying stuff you know to be wrong on every level. I do hope so.
Damn sure I wouldn't hire a JW as a baby sitter having read that though.

I am not flailing around anywhere but in your sick interpretation of what I said. My ideas are not perverse except in the way you twisted what I said.

I already mentioned that all institutions that have access to children can harbour pedophiles. They don't exactly walk around with "pedophile" tattooed on their foreheads. They look and act like very normal people. As Christians, we are naturally trusting of one another and they obviously know this.

In times past, child abuse was treated vastly differently to what it is now.....especially in the legal system. It was not considered a serious crime until the psychological damage became manifest in victims decades later. Once that collective damage was assessed and recognised, the legal system changed the way they dealt with the perpetrators and the way prosecution was handled in the court system. Often victims had to face their abusers in court and were put through traumatic recounting of the abuse under cold, hard cross examination by lawyers intent on getting their clients off the hook. That often made the court case more traumatic for the victim than the original crime.

We acknowledge along with every other institution that things were not handled well back then, but today there is a completely different approach, as it should be.

If you believe everything you read on the net, then that is up to you.

Tell that to the victims of child abuse in your religious organisation who grew up as "damaged goods" thanks to the cover ups. Makes me wonder what else goes on behind closed doors in the Kingdom Halls, but Deeje, if I ever had the slightest inkling of curiosity to visit one of your churches, you have now utterly killed it. Not interested in an organisation that enables child abusers, and covers up abuse, unless it is to report any offenders hiding in it to the authorities.

Whatever you think was not created by me or by Jehovah's Witnesses....it was entirely created in your own twisted interpretation of what I said. Child abuse is never OK and never was. The way it is handled these days is as the criminal offence it has been proven to be.

You do understand that pedophile rings have people from all walks of life as members.....judges, lawyers, doctors, professional executives, media celebrities and ordinary everyday people. You would never know you were rubbing shoulders with them....unless they were caught.

Children have now been educated to identify suspect behavior but as long as pedophilia continues to be fed by internet child porn, no child is safe....even from their own parents. That is the sad state of today's world.....and yes, we expect an accounting sometime in the near future.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
Are you serious? You totally misinterpreted what I said.

You said that child abuse was different to what consenting homosexual adults do in private. My point was that consent doesn't make it right. If the child consents to the abuse because they have been raised with it, still makes it just as wrong.

For heaven's sake, don't misquote me or attribute your own sick interpretation to what I said. You talk about offensive! I thought you were a fair minded person until this exchange, but now I see the real person, wanting to assume bad motives where there are none.
.
I am relieved to say I owe you an apology, I actually found what you wrote disturbing, indicative of a deeply sinister religion, but I still have a problem with what you are saying. Children don't consent to sex, they may be manipulated into it by their abusers but to say they "consent" to sex with an adult is like saying the child soldiers in Africa "consent" to become killers - they have no choice in the matter. They are being abused by adults. They have little bodies and immature minds, they are the real "lambs amongst wolves", not the religious martyrs who fancy a bit of extra praise and glory from their deity.
There is no abuse in a consenting adult gay relationship, so lets get it right. It's only wrong in your eyes because your holy book says it is wrong. I'm pretty sure it is not something that would vex you if you weren't religious.
All that said, I'm pretty relieved to find out you were not saying what I thought you were! Please be careful what you write! You can have a second apology, I did go off on a bit off a rant when I read that!

We acknowledge along with every other institution that things were not handled well back then, but today there is a completely different approach, as it should be.
I have a problem with that, the "Catholic" defence I'd call it. Just like the Catholics you want it both ways - the Watchtower is the "bride of Christ" when you're proselytising, the only true church guided by the spirit, the upholder of god's truth. When the unpleasant underside is exposed, you're just another human institution. "Paedophiles exist everywhere, what do you do?" If there was any truth in the Watchtower claims, you know what? I wouldn't expect it to contain paedophiles, much less would I expect the "faithful" help to cover their horrible abuse up.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Things in place after the cover ups were exposed? Damn right there is a "legal system", a secular one that imprisons sick perverts who hide in religious organisations like yours. Great thing secular government isn't it?

From that Wiki article:

In June 2012 the Superior Court of Alameda, California, ordered the Watch Tower Society to pay US$21 million in punitive damages, in addition to compensatory damages, after finding that the Society's policy to not disclose child abuse history of a member to parents in the congregation or to report abuse to authorities contributed to the sexual abuse of a nine-year-old girl.[14] In April 2015, the appeal court partially upheld the trial court's verdict, ordering that the Watch Tower Society pay compensatory damages amounting to US$2.8 million, but concluded that the congregation had no duty to warn the parents or members about the child abuse history of other members. The case was settled for an undisclosed sum while on appeal to the supreme court of California. In 2016 a UK judge upheld a ruling against the Jehovah's Witnesses for failing to protect a victim of child sexual abuse, and the supreme court rejected an attempt by the Watch Tower Society to block a Charity Commission inquiry into how the organisation's charity handles allegations of abuse. This was the culmination of two years of legal proceedings in five different courts and tribunals in which "WTBTS has at every stage relentlessly challenged the legal basis and scope of the Charity Commission's inquiry".[1]

I wanted to address this as you quoted from this Wiki article.

Please also see details of the case....as reported in the New York Times.

"A Northern California jury has awarded $28 million in damages to a woman who said the Jehovah’s Witnesses allowed an adult member of a Fremont, Calif., church to molest her when she was a child.

In her lawsuit, Ms. Conti, 26, said that in 1995 and 1996, when she was 9 and 10 years old and a member of the North Fremont Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, she was repeatedly molested by a fellow congregant, Jonathan Kendrick.

Ms. Conti also said in her lawsuit that the Christian denomination’s national leaders formed a policy in 1989 that instructed the church’s elders to keep child sex abuse accusations secret. Congregation elders followed that policy when Mr. Kendrick was convicted in 1994 of misdemeanor child molestation in Alameda County, according to Mr. Simons.

Mr. Kendrick was never criminally charged in the case involving Ms. Conti, but he was also convicted in 2004 of lewd or lascivious acts with a child, records show. . . .

Mr. Kendrick, 58, now lives in Oakley, Calif., according to the state’s sex offender registry. . . . .

Jim McCabe, a lawyer for the congregation, said he planned to appeal the jury’s decision.

“The Jehovah’s Witnesses hate child abuse and believe it’s a plague on humanity,” Mr. McCabe said. “Jonathan Kendrick was not a leader or a pastor. He was just a rank-and-file member. This is a tragic case where a member of a religious group has brought liability on the group for actions he alone may have taken.


If you read what is reported, something becomes a little clearer. The complainant alleges that the abuser was "allowed" to molest her. That is utter nonsense. No one in their right mind would "allow" a child to be molested, let alone those who are bound by God's moral laws.

The abuse took place in the mid nineties when child sex abuse cases were handled very differently.

Despite the fact the man was convicted of an offense the previous year, he was never charged in her case, but was convicted in 2004 with lewd acts with a child. She was obviously not his only victim. He is on a sex offender's registry, which means that the law is aware of his criminal record. M
embers of the congregation connected to the victim's circumstances would have been aware of his behavior after it was exposed and would have personally sounded a warning to other parents IMO. We have a no gossip policy in the congregation, but this would not have been idle gossip.

Please understand that our elders are not the police and were under no obligation as ministers of religion to notify the authorities. That was up to the victim's family. We also have confidentiality issues when someone has a history that may cause undue prejudice against one who has repented of a former course. We cannot judge a person's heart and pedophiles can be extremely good con artists. Elders have to take a person's word for it that they are truly repentant. Christians must forgive because Christ commanded it.
If the problem surfaces again, they would be expelled after a thorough investigation.

Policies have changed in recent times that address these issues in what is an incredibly litigious society. It seems that the ones who have the most to gain in all of these cases is
the lawyers.

Seeing someone brought to justice helps....but money cannot heal damaged souls......forgiveness can.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Trans-gender people blur the lines when it comes to sexual orientation.

In our town we have a prominent business person who publicly announced that he was changing his gender from male to female. He was a married man with children. He has had the surgery and hormone treatment has feminized him somewhat.....but he just looks like a man in drag.

It was his decision but people just didn't understand how he could do that to his wife and children. Imagine the bullying that his kids have had to endure....one is in High School, the others in Primary School. His wife looks terrible. Is it really all about the transgender/transsexual person? The fall-out from this decision has ruined his marriage, caused huge embarrassment for his wife and children and almost ruined his business......was it worth it? Hasn't he just swapped one bad set of circumstances for another? How can he/she be happy when no one else is? Can you have real happiness by stealing it away from others?
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Good for that person. It's the society which is prejudiced that they are the problem. Whenever there is a moral advance, there will be some who will try to resist it by creating suffering for those who make the advance (inter-racial marriage, interacted marriage, homosexual marriage, sex change).Some people are bigoted in that manner. But no pain, no gain.

Of course the fact that Bible OT and parts of NT has very poor and retrograde standards of morality is a big part of the problem of Christian religions, as well as the fact that Christianity relies to much on this one old book.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Trans-gender people blur the lines when it comes to sexual orientation.

In our town we have a prominent business person who publicly announced that he was changing his gender from male to female. He was a married man with children. He has had the surgery and hormone treatment has feminized him somewhat.....but he just looks like a man in drag.

It was his decision but people just didn't understand how he could do that to his wife and children. Imagine the bullying that his kids have had to endure....one is in High School, the others in Primary School. His wife looks terrible. Is it really all about the transgender/transsexual person? The fall-out from this decision has ruined his marriage, caused huge embarrassment for his wife and children and almost ruined his business......was it worth it? Hasn't he just swapped one bad set of circumstances for another? How can he/she be happy when no one else is? Can you have real happiness by stealing it away from others?
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Yes, because when trans people come out, it's always some tragic tale, right? :rolleyes: I don't know that individual so I can't judge their circumstances. I know my coming out and transitioning process was fine, though. No lives were "ruined". A lot of the problem is with society. I hope that person finds happiness and same for their family. Being authentically yourself is always worth it.

Thankfully, society is changing and becoming more understanding and accepting of trans people so we are allowed to come out and transition more and more at younger ages instead of living a lie. Instead of pretending to be a woman for much or all of my life, I was able to transition in my late teens and will live the vast majority of my life as the man I am. So there will be no sham marriages with me. My partners will always get the real me. I feel for those of earlier generations who didn't get that chance or have to transition later in life. That things are changing is wonderful.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am relieved to say I owe you an apology, I actually found what you wrote disturbing, indicative of a deeply sinister religion, but I still have a problem with what you are saying.
Thank you.

Children don't consent to sex, they may be manipulated into it by their abusers but to say they "consent" to sex with an adult is like saying the child soldiers in Africa "consent" to become killers - they have no choice in the matter. They are being abused by adults. They have little bodies and immature minds, they are the real "lambs amongst wolves", not the religious martyrs who fancy a bit of extra praise and glory from their deity.

I have seen adult daughters who had sexual relations with their father from a young age describe it as "loving". The "abuse" was not seen as "abuse" but rather as an expression of "love". Its a very distorted and sick kind of love, but it is not interpreted as anything bad in their mind. That doesn't make the abuse any less criminal. Just like those young African soldiers who become killers because they are brainwashed into thinking it is for a noble cause, rather than just outright murder. I believe that we gain half of our personality from our environment growing up....the other half is genetic.

There is no abuse in a consenting adult gay relationship, so lets get it right.

I can only answer that with a scripture....

1 Corinthians 6:18:
"Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body." This applies regardless of gender.

For Christians, Paul goes on to say....
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God? Also, you do not belong to yourselves, 20 for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in your body."

We try hard to do this.

It's only wrong in your eyes because your holy book says it is wrong. I'm pretty sure it is not something that would vex you if you weren't religious.

My gut feelings when I see same sex couples is not warm and fuzzy....it makes me feel repulsed actually. That is a natural response that would surface regardless of my religious leanings. The world has a habit of being able to make bad things appear to be good and vice versa. My gut instincts are not something I work to switch off. I can generally trust them. That doesn't mean I go around bagging people out about their sexuality.....but for those who try to claim that God says its OK....they are kidding themselves.

All that said, I'm pretty relieved to find out you were not saying what I thought you were! Please be careful what you write! You can have a second apology, I did go off on a bit off a rant when I read that!

It must have made you angry to misinterpret what I said. I am always careful about what I write.

I have a problem with that, the "Catholic" defence I'd call it. Just like the Catholics you want it both ways - the Watchtower is the "bride of Christ" when you're proselytising, the only true church guided by the spirit, the upholder of god's truth. When the unpleasant underside is exposed, you're just another human institution. "Paedophiles exist everywhere, what do you do?" If there was any truth in the Watchtower claims, you know what? I wouldn't expect it to contain paedophiles, much less would I expect the "faithful" help to cover their horrible abuse up.

When you read scripture, you realize that all humans fall short in God's eyes....some just fall further than others. All God has to see is our best efforts. No one wants to cover up any ongoing abuse, but if someone has put that way of life behind them, then why is that different to a former gang member who has murdered people and then discovers God in jail?
Should his former life hang around his neck like a noose if he has genuinely turned over a new leaf and left that lifestyle behind? Aren't people entitled to a second chance? Their own actions will determine their future.

The nation of Israel was constantly letting their God down by their disobedient behavior but it did not stop God from using them to accomplish his purpose. Once the Messiah came he abandoned that rebellious nation and created a new one with a similar set of rules. But the early Christians too had issues to contend with....any institution of imperfect humans will have problems because 'the flesh is weak even when the spirit is willing.' (Matthew 26:41)
When the final judgement comes, no one will get away with anything.

If God doesn't expect perfection from us, then why would we expect perfection from one another?
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
My gut feelings when I see same sex couples is not warm and fuzzy....it makes me feel repulsed actually
Probably because you grew up in a homophobic environment or allowed yourself to be indoctrinated with homophobia. I grew up around gays and lesbians and never knew there was a difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality until I was a teen and learned that society makes a distinction. To me, it was all the same and just normal. It was nothing for me to talk about crushes on guys as a preteen with a male friend who later came out as gay.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Good for that person. It's the society which is prejudiced that they are the problem. Whenever there is a moral advance, there will be some who will try to resist it by creating suffering for those who make the advance (inter-racial marriage, interacted marriage, homosexual marriage, sex change).Some people are bigoted in that manner. But no pain, no gain.

I don't think we would call it a "moral advance" when it clearly violates God's law as specifically recorded in his word. Immorality is immoral, and no change of translation will alter that. There is no law against interracial marriage in the Bible, but there is a law on same sex marriage. Homosexuality has been practiced since time immemorial....it is nothing new....what is new is the push to have it integrated into the world as a societal "norm" that everyone must accept. If they don't accept it, there is something morally wrong with them. Its like evolution V creation......if you don't accept evolution, there must be something wrong with your intellect.

Sorry, but I have never been one to run with the mob. The mob isn't always right.

To us, if God doesn't accept homosexual acts, then we won't either. But as I said, we won't tell people how to live or lobby to have a ban placed according to the laws of the land either. Everyone is free to do as they wish. We all have free will.....don't we? I don't have to approve of homosexuality because of how my God feels about it.....and I will not alter on this issue.

Transgender issues are relatively new so we will have to think about that a little more. No one can help their sexuality and many people are existing in a body that lies about their gender. I believe that God understands the problem and will fix all these issues in his due time.

Of course the fact that Bible OT and parts of NT has very poor and retrograde standards of morality is a big part of the problem of Christian religions, as well as the fact that Christianity relies to much on this one old book.

God is retrograde? :facepalm: Are your gods retrograde too, or are they inclined to conveniently meet current human standards?

My God does not alter his standards to suit immoral humans....I guess that is the difference between the true God and fake ones? :shrug: He will not come down to our level...we have to try to come up to his.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Probably because you grew up in a homophobic environment or allowed yourself to be indoctrinated with homophobia. I grew up around gays and lesbians and never knew there was a difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality until I was a teen and learned that society makes a distinction. To me, it was all the same and just normal. It was nothing for me to talk about crushes on guys as a preteen with a male friend who later came out as gay.

:facepalm: Oh dear.....I guess I am grateful for the upbringing I had then.
That sounds completely dysfunctional to me....not a life I would envy. :(
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
We all know that pedophilia is something abhorrent to those who aren't pedophiles. The sexual abuse of children is something that is unacceptable to those who do not suffer with the disorder......yet it is accepted as normal among those with the disorder even though it is punishable by law
You're not correct there. There's many pedophiles who don't support sex with children and form support groups to help each other develop healthy identities without hurting anyone or breaking the law. I've known many of them. Many of the people who molest children aren't actually pedophiles in the first place. Child rapists, for example, tend to be sexual sadists who want easy targets. Some of them have stunted emotional maturity. Pedophilia is a more narrow concept as a sexual orientation and paraphilia.
 
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