I have seen adult daughters who had sexual relations with their father from a young age describe it as "loving". The "abuse" was not seen as "abuse" but rather as an expression of "love". Its a very distorted and sick kind of love, but it is not interpreted as anything bad in their mind. That doesn't make the abuse any less criminal. Just like those young African soldiers who become killers because they are brainwashed into thinking it is for a noble cause, rather than just outright murder.?
Are you
still trying to claim there are circumstances when sex with kids is consensual? If a child is raped or molested by his or her father from an early age until adulthood that is
abuse agreed? Even if the child grows up to mistake it for "love" it is still
abuse, agreed? It is a relationship founded on abuse. The abused sometimes become abusers themselves when they grow up, it is called a 'cycle of abuse', that's all. Can we agree on that point and move on?
I believe that we gain half of our personality from our environment growing up....the other half is genetic.?
If by "personality" you mean
beliefs, I'd say cultural influences are
way more influential than "genetics". If you were born in Pakistan the chances are you'd be a Muslim, because that is what pervades the culture there. There is pressure to conform to cultural norms wherever you live, and cultural heritage has a huge impact on beliefs and social attitudes within the population.
I can only answer that with a scripture....
1 Corinthians 6:18:
"Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body." This applies regardless of gender.
For Christians, Paul goes on to say....
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy spirit within you, which you have from God? Also, you do not belong to yourselves, 20 for you were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in your body."
Sure, like I say, you beliefs about what is "immoral" sexually are formed by what your holy book tells you. I'm sure you understand but quoting the bible at me does not count as a good argument in my world view. All I see are quotes from ancient times, written by prudes and homophobes, why should I take any notice of what those long dead superstitious bigots thought? Imagine me quoting the Quran at you - are you going to sit up and take notice or think exactly like me with regards to quotes from the bible?
It makes our discussion difficult, because you base your thinking on holy writ, and when it comes to morality I base my thinking on "whatever harms the wellbeing of other human beings is immoral", so sex between consenting adults is never going to mean immoral behaviour in my book. There is a bit of a gap to bridge there!
My gut feelings when I see same sex couples is not warm and fuzzy....it makes me feel repulsed actually. That is a natural response that would surface regardless of my religious leanings. The world has a habit of being able to make bad things appear to be good and vice versa.
I don't know you well enough to comment on whether you would still be "repulsed" of course, but as I said previously a
lot of our beliefs are dictated by the culture we grow up in. Homophobia is still alive and well even in secular nations like the UK, but for centuries this nation was a Christian nation with homophobia a cultural norm because of biblical claims. Those prejudices don't disappear overnight, when they have been deeply ingrained in generations of people. In my religious days I can recognise then that casual homophobia, casual racism, casual misogyny formed part of my thinking based on my religious beliefs and cultural heritage. I'm not saying I was some sort of Nazi, just that I was immersed in my culture and didn't honestly ask myself "why
do I believe that?".
As an aside, if it is anal sex that "repulses" you know that not all gay couples are into anal sex, and quite a lot of "hetero" couple
are right? Personally, I try not to think about what my friends and acquaintances get up to in the bedroom, gay or straight, male or female, that is
their business!
It must have made you angry to misinterpret what I said. I am always careful about what I write..
Just phraseology, misunderstandings happen, as I said I was somewhat relieved to find out I had got it wrong!
When you read scripture, you realize that all humans fall short in God's eyes....some just fall further than others. All God has to see is our best efforts. No one wants to cover up any ongoing abuse, but if someone has put that way of life behind them, then why is that different to a former gang member who has murdered people and then discovers God in jail?
Should his former life hang around his neck like a noose if he has genuinely turned over a new leaf and left that lifestyle behind? Aren't people entitled to a second chance? Their own actions will determine their future.
The nation of Israel was constantly letting their God down by their disobedient behavior but it did not stop God from using them to accomplish his purpose. Once the Messiah came he abandoned that rebellious nation and created a new one with a similar set of rules. But the early Christians too had issues to contend with....any institution of imperfect humans will have problems because 'the flesh is weak even when the spirit is willing.' (Matthew 26:41)
When the final judgement comes, no one will get away with anything.
If God doesn't expect perfection from us, then why would we expect perfection from one another?
Yes, more scripture, but I don't see it as an authority on
anything, and I have to say I pretty much dislike the concept of "The Fall", it has probably been responsible for more religious guilt and angst than anything else. How many lives have been made miserable with guilt because a man or a woman has same sex attraction, or feels trapped inside the wrong gender, damn it how much guilt and angst in religious teenagers who masturbate? "Born sick and commanded to be well" as a man once said.
I think we may have 'done' this one now Deeje, I think we have reached a bit of an impasse, but it has been a good debate (discussion is possibly too polite a term on this occasion!). I'm sure we'll butt heads again though!