Too Many Puppies

[Where Is God]

[youtube]-XJN7qqFqPE[/youtube]
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
This pretty much sums it up. Plus it is ******. Please watch.

 

[Valjean]

Yeah. Those darn military people with their Army National Guard and the Coast Guard! They never offer humanitarian aid in the times of emergencies or police our coastal waters to protect us from pirates!

I don't follow. What's your point?

 

[MissAlice]

I think Seynori brings up a good point. Sometimes though I feel powerless when it comes having a say in this country.

But I agree. It's crazy that at 21 you're allowed to drink yet at your age it's ok to risk your life in a battle. I have my own opinions about the war in Iraq.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think Seynori brings up a good point. Sometimes though I feel powerless when it comes having a say in this country.
But I agree. It's crazy that at 21 you're allowed to drink yet at your age it's ok to risk your life in a battle. I have my own opinions about the war in Iraq.

Think of the great potential to commit carnage within the military as a necessary risk, but with drinking the risk has no real value to society.
Maybe the drinking age should be 30?

 

[Magic Man]

Rates of depression in the military are actually lower than the general population. I remember listening to a very interesting discussion on the radio one time because the military was becoming quite alarmed by the significant increase of suicides commited by soldiers. It was almost as high as the general population.

"The army suicide rate is now higher than that among the general American population. The rate has been calculated as 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, compared with 19.5 per 100,000 civilians. This is a shocking statistic, as soldiers theoretically are screened for mental illnesses before enlistment and have access to counselling and health services that millions of ordinary people cannot afford."

Link

 

[.lava]

As you may know, most of my threads or topics are usually about religion. I would now like to step aside from all religious views to reveal to you a horrendous thought I had today.

I am old enough to die for my county.

Has anyone really ever thought or cared about this? Seriously, I am 17 years old and am eligible(with parental consent until next year) to go to war! Does this not immediately ring a bell to anyone? I am just beginning to start life and understand the world and it's beauty. It's my personal opinion that this age is way to young(not that I think any age is appropriate). There is just so much to experience in life that joining the military at this age should be illegal. It is so sad to hear all my friends and co workers talking about ioinin the military to go to college for free. Awesome, but what happens when you don't make it back in one piece, or non at all? College sounds insignificant compared to the beautiful life of a human wasted at war.

IMO if an army comes to your nation to kill and to take over, it should not matter how old you are. but in case it is your nation that sends its army to another nation to kill and to take over, well, even if you're over 100 you should think twice before you join

.

 

[Kathryn]

LOL that link is from the World Socialist Website! And from 2009. And it states that in 2008 there were 169 suicides among military personnel. The article then states that "The rate has been calculated as 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, compared with 19.5 per 100,000 civilians."


So...let's see - there are about 2.3 MILLION active duty and reserve military personnel serving in the US military.
United States Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 2008 out of that vast number, 169 people committed suicide. That's NOT 20.2 per 100,000 military personnel - not by a long shot. If that were the case, there would have been about 465 military suicides.

 

[Kathryn]

Remind me to never get into a stats fight with you unless I'm 100% sure on my numbers.

Well, stats can usually be twisted to support just about any view. But if you just click on that link about suicides, it's almost laughable to read - it's so obviously an opinion piece and OBVIOUSLY plays loose and fast and sloppy with numbers. I got to thinking, "You mean, out of the entire military, there were only 169 suicides that year? Actually, that sounds lower than average, not higher." So it was pretty easy to look up the numbers and do the math.

Seems that the military suicide rate is actually less than HALF the civilian rate.

 

[Magic Man]

LOL that link is from the World Socialist Website! And from 2009. And it states that in 2008 there were 169 suicides among military personnel. The article then states that "The rate has been calculated as 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, compared with 19.5 per 100,000 civilians."


So...let's see - there are about 2.3 MILLION active duty and reserve military personnel serving in the US military.
United States Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 2008 out of that vast number, 169 people committed suicide. That's NOT 20.2 per 100,000 military personnel - not by a long shot. If that were the case, there would have been about 465 military suicides.

OK, first, you should probably quote someone when you respond to them, or at least acknowledge who you're responding to.

Now, on to the meat of the matter. You should really check your own links. From that Wiki article:

"As of 2010, the suicide rates in the U.S. armed forces are at record high levels. In some theaters of operations, such as Afghanistan, losses due to suicide exceed deaths due to enemy actions. Rates among the Army and Marines run at about 20 per 100,000 people per year."

They give 3 different sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces#cite_note-30One is the one I linked to, another is NPR and the other one is congress.org. From that last one:

"Overall, the services reported 434 suicides by personnel on active duty, significantly more than the 381 suicides by active-duty personnel reported in 2009. The 2010 total is below the 462 deaths in combat, excluding accidents and illness. In 2009, active-duty suicides exceeded deaths in battle."

I can only guess that you saw "Socialist" and me and immediately had to argue against it. I don't really see any other reason for you to be so biased on this subject. It is funny to me that you pretend not to be biased and to be against others' biases, but when it comes down to it, your bias against me and anything liberal is loud and clear.

The worst part is that your blind bias made you miss the whole point. Whatever the numbers are, the point is that a soldiers are committing suicide at an alarming and rising rate, and the fact that the rate might be lower than the general population doesn't help, considering military personnel are supposed to be screened for mental problems. That means being in the military is what is causing them mental problems.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, stats can usually be twisted to support just about any view. But if you just click on that link about suicides, it's almost laughable to read - it's so obviously an opinion piece and OBVIOUSLY plays loose and fast and sloppy with numbers. I got to thinking, "You mean, out of the entire military, there were only 169 suicides that year? Actually, that sounds lower than average, not higher." So it was pretty easy to look up the numbers and do the math.

Seems that the military suicide rate is actually less than HALF the civilian rate.

Yes, it's pretty easy to see "socialist" and have your bias do the rest of the work for you. If you were really interested in the real stats, you would have actually looked for them. I found them through the very link you provided. And no, it seems the military suicide rate is actually right around the civilian one. However, I'm not sure why that even matters. Even if it was half, that would still be a lot considering the circumstances.

And I have to know, why would you possible assume someone is trying to twist the stats to claim that the military suicide rate is worse than it is? What bias would cause them to do that? What part of the "liberal/socialist agenda" would that support?

 

[BeeBooga]

Don't make the mistake of not respecting the men and women in the military. You may not agree, but think about what might happen if they weren't dying for us. Just as you say "So you're ok with your kids killing people?" those people that their killing could kill all of us if no one was fighting. Though that may not be justification, its just something you should consider.
Also, don't make the mistake of thinking I approve, I have a great distaste for the military. I surely show it when any friend of mine attempts to join, but I will never disrespect someone in the military.

 

[Magic Man]

Don't make the mistake of not respecting the men and women in the military. You may not agree, but think about what might happen if they weren't dying for us. Just as you say "So you're ok with your kids killing people?" those people that their killing could kill all of us if no one was fighting. Though that may not be justification, its just something you should consider.

Most of the military is not fighting or dying for us. The ones in Iraq and Afghanistan certainly aren't. What they're doing is not making us any safer. I'm not saying they shouldn't be respected, but let's at least realize what their role is.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Most of the military is not fighting or dying for us. The ones in Iraq and Afghanistan certainly aren't. What they're doing is not making us any safer. I'm not saying they shouldn't be respected, but let's at least realize what their role is.

Blame the Gov't for that. Not the military. We don't get to choose when and where we go.

If you were to ask, I would bet you more than half of those deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan do not agree with why we are there. I didn't. But they are there because its their job, which they voluntarily signed up to do.

 

[Magic Man]

Blame the Gov't for that. Not the military. We don't get to choose when and where we go.

If you were to ask, I would bet you more than half of those deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan do not agree with why we are there. I didn't. But they are there because its their job, which they voluntarily signed up to do.

Which is why I said they should still be respected. I said that specifically because it's not the soldiers' fault. I'm not blaming them, but the idea that they're fighting and dying for us is inaccurate.

 

[Kathryn]

There are nearly 2.3 MILLION active duty and reserve US military personnel and that number has actually DECREASED over the past few years, not increased. In 2008 the number was even higher. In 2008 there were 169 suicides among military personnel according to mball's source.

This is NOT a 20 per 100,000 suicide rate. I mean, it's just NOT. How can it be? The math simply doesn't work.

 

[BeeBooga]

Blame the Gov't for that. Not the military. We don't get to choose when and where we go.

If you were to ask, I would bet you more than half of those deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan do not agree with why we are there. I didn't. But they are there because its their job, which they voluntarily signed up to do.

This right here.
Many of my best friends are military. They don't exactly agree with it.

 

[Magic Man]

There are nearly 2.3 MILLION active duty and reserve US military personnel and that number has actually DECREASED over the past few years, not increased. In 2008 the number was even higher. In 2008 there were 169 suicides among military personnel according to mball's source.

This is NOT a 20 per 100,000 suicide rate. I mean, it's just NOT. How can it be? The math simply doesn't work.

That's OK. I would just continue to ignore anything that proved me wrong too. No need to read anything that might go against what you said. It's OK. I don't expect anything better from you at this point, Kathryn. But if ever you do want to stop letting your bias do all your thinking, you can go back and read my last post that explains everything.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I fail to see how military vs. civilian suicide rates has anything to do with the OP.


Fact is it happens in both demographics and it sucks.

 

[Kathryn]

Just to show how media bias is nearly inescapable:

In 2010 military suicide rates dropped. But HERE is the headline on that report by the Huffington Post:

Suicide In Military: Suicides In Army National Guard And Reserve Doubled Last Year


Suicide In Military: Suicides In Army National Guard And Reserve Doubled Last Year

Here is the actual, factual truth (from the same article - but in much smaller print):

"WASHINGTON — Suicides among active duty soldiers dropped slightly in 2010 after five years of record increases, Army leaders said Wednesday...

The number of active duty suicides declined in all services except for the Air Force last year."


Then, further down in the article, we find this:

"Maj. Gen. Raymond Carpenter, acting director of the Army National Guard, said for his soldiers it is a "young white male problem," that does not appear to be linked to war deployments or lack of jobs. Instead, he said, about half the cases of Guard soldiers' suicides involved people who had some type of relationship problem with a spouse or partner."

 

[Kathryn]

Here's the deal on the stats, mball. The link that you posted originally, from the socialist website, had faulty math. It claimed a suicide rate of 20 per 100,000 in the military (apparently right) but said that there were 169 military suicides in the time period it was covering. Those figures do not add up to 20 per 100,000 active duty.

The Wiki article, which you correctly pointed out did support the 20 per 100,000 figure, was where I got my figures for the numbers of active duty military, which was the information I was looking for. And you are also right that I did not read the entire Wiki article. If I had, I would have read the CORRECT stats, not the INCORRECT ones that you posted in your link to the socialist website (which I pointed out did not make sense math wise). By the way, I stand firmly behind my assertion that the link from the socialist website is pure trash - very poorly written, subjective, with faulty math and full of obvious bias. If it's an opinion piece, that's fine, but it sucks if you're counting on it for factual information.

The bad news is that apparently the suicide rate among active duty military IS around that of the civilian population, perhaps a bit higher (as the Huffington Post article very RELUCTANTLY and disingenuously seems forced to point out, past it's misleading header, though, the military suicide rate dropped in 2010).

My Army airborne infantry son, who has spent a total of nearly two years in Iraq, suffered from PTSD when he returned (the military counseling and medical attention he has received has helped him tremendously though and he's doing great now). The best definition I've heard for PTSD is this: "A normal response to a very abnormal set of events." The stress that soldiers, airmen, and marines experience during long deployments in the environments of Iraq and Afghanistan is severe, moreso in many ways than the stress that Vietnam, Korean War, or WW2 military veterans experienced.

This is because in those earlier wars, soldiers would have an actual battle, which may last from a few hours to a few days, and then retreat or regroup at sites which were secure, sometimes for months at a time. In other words, their action was sporadic, with long breaks in between, in which they were able to relax, regroup, debrief, and generally get their heads and hearts together.

In the current middle east environment, the deployments are long (sometimes up to 18 months) and the danger is incessant. Your helmet and forty pounds of gear better be in place every waking moment. You are in danger nearly every single minute. The attacks are random, and death is random as well. My son was involved in NUMEROUS IED explosions. Though luckily he was never severely injured (slight concussions, burst eardrums and temporary loss of hearing for a few days, bruises and sprains from being thrown twenty feet by the blast several times, but thankfully no lost limbs - the only permanent effect seems to be increased headaches and a slight loss of hearing), the emotional scars of living for 20 straight months with random death around him constantly really affected him. In Iraq, a piece of trash or dead animal in the road can and often does hide an IED. A child can have a bomb strapped to his chest. A woman in a burka can be a suicide bomber. A translator who laughs with you and lives with you for 8 months can be an informant and help someone kill your best friend.

Thankfully, as I said, my son received thru the military the help he has needed to overcome the worst effects of PTSD, though his life and health are permanently affected in some ways. No, he will never be the same, but he's now able to assimilate that 20 months into his whole life, and live with those memories without twisting off.

But he's a naturally positive person, with a strong family network, and a healthy affection and respect for himself. Not everyone in the military is that lucky.

Considering the fact that we are engaged in three ambiguous wars with no clearly defined purpose (how would you like to die for THAT?), thanks in part to our Nobel Peace Prize winning President, and apparently no end is in sight, yes, our military IS under great stress. I'm actually surprised that the suicide rate isn't significantly HIGHER than the general population (since it has dropped over the past year or so, it's nearly identical to the rate of the general population).