Too Many Puppies

[Magic Man]

Just to show how media bias is nearly inescapable:

In 2010 military suicide rates dropped. But HERE is the headline on that report by the Huffington Post:

Suicide In Military: Suicides In Army National Guard And Reserve Doubled Last Year


Suicide In Military: Suicides In Army National Guard And Reserve Doubled Last Year

Here is the actual, factual truth (from the same article - but in much smaller print):

"WASHINGTON — Suicides among active duty soldiers dropped slightly in 2010 after five years of record increases, Army leaders said Wednesday...

The number of active duty suicides declined in all services except for the Air Force last year."


Then, further down in the article, we find this:

"Maj. Gen. Raymond Carpenter, acting director of the Army National Guard, said for his soldiers it is a "young white male problem," that does not appear to be linked to war deployments or lack of jobs. Instead, he said, about half the cases of Guard soldiers' suicides involved people who had some type of relationship problem with a spouse or partner."

Kathryn, please try to read things without your bias. It will help you see them more clearly, and help you look less confused. It also helps to not leave out the relevant bits of information.

The title of the article you link to is "Suicides in Army National Guard and Reserve". The article is focusing on the National Guard and Reserve, not the military as a whole. So, when it says that suicide rates of active duty soldiers in the military dropped, it means the military as a whole. The two paragraphs you left out that are the "..." you put in that first quote are:

"But there were twice as many self-inflicted deaths last year than the year before among the Army National Guard and Reserve, the nation's "citizen soldiers."

The big increase in suicides for members of the Guard and Reserve involved soldiers who were not on active duty at the time."


I understand that that information doesn't fit your bias and determination to be right, but it's still relevant, factual information.

 

[Magic Man]

Here's the deal on the stats, mball. The link that you posted originally, from the socialist website, had faulty math. It claimed a suicide rate of 20 per 100,000 in the military (apparently right) but said that there were 169 military suicides in the time period it was covering. Those figures do not add up to 20 per 100,000 active duty.

I understand that. I don't know what the deal is with those numbers.

The Wiki article, which you correctly pointed out did support the 20 per 100,000 figure, was where I got my figures for the numbers of active duty military, which was the information I was looking for. And you are also right that I did not read the entire Wiki article. If I had, I would have read the CORRECT stats, not the INCORRECT ones that you posted in your link to the socialist website (which I pointed out did not make sense math wise). By the way, I stand firmly behind my assertion that the link from the socialist website is pure trash - very poorly written, subjective, with faulty math and full of obvious bias. If it's an opinion piece, that's fine, but it sucks if you're counting on it for factual information.

The bad news is that apparently the suicide rate among active duty military IS around that of the civilian population, perhaps a bit higher (as the Huffington Post article very RELUCTANTLY and disingenuously seems forced to point out, past it's misleading header, though, the military suicide rate dropped in 2010).

Thank you for admitting your mistake, even if it was in a roundabout way. And no, there was nothing misleading about the HuffPo article. There is a rise in suicide rates among National Guard and Reserve, which was the point of the article. You were reading it to get slightly different information, but that wasn't the point of that article. It didn't reluctantly or disingenuously give anything. It told the story it was trying to tell, and it told it accurately.

I'm actually surprised that the suicide rate isn't significantly HIGHER than the general population (since it has dropped over the past year or so, it's nearly identical to the rate of the general population).

I am also surprised. Although, as the original article I posted points out, when you factor in the fact that soldiers are screened for mental illness before going in, it does make the suicide rate that much worse. Still it is a big problem that is only beginning to be dealt with in an appropriate way. I'm glad your son got the help he needed, and he's OK. I just wish that was a more common outcome than it is.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I am also surprised. Although, as the original article I posted points out, when you factor in the fact that soldiers are screened for mental illness before going in, it does make the suicide rate that much worse.

Mental Illness is not an easy thing to screen for, especially when the person screening potential members only gets to see them once for a short amount of time. A majority of the time, if one does indeed have some form of mental issue, it isn't discovered until much later, once they are part of the operational force.

 

[Magic Man]

Mental Illness is not an easy thing to screen for, especially when the person screening potential members only gets to see them once for a short amount of time. A majority of the time, if one does indeed have some form of mental issue, it isn't discovered until much later, once they are part of the operational force.

I understand, but the general public doesn't get screened for mental illness at all, so even if the success rate of diagnosing it in potential soldiers isn't great, it still means they should have a much lower rate of mental illness than the general population.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I understand, but the general public doesn't get screened for mental illness at all, so even if the success rate of diagnosing it in potential soldiers isn't great, it still means they should have a much lower rate of mental illness than the general population.

True. However, because someone has mental illness doesn't necessarily mean suicide. Lots of people that commit suicide in the military have never seen combat and do it for the same reasons civilians do.

When I was in tech School, in the 8 months I was there 2 people took their lives and their schooling was only 5 weeks long.

I think the fact that there aren't more combat related suicides is a tribute to the help the VA provides to those with PTSD.

 

[Magic Man]

True. However, because someone has mental illness doesn't necessarily mean suicide. Lots of people that commit suicide in the military have never seen combat and do it for the same reasons civilians do.

When I was in tech School, in the 8 months I was there 2 people took their lives and their schooling was only 5 weeks long.

Sure, people commit suicide for all kinds of reasons. Lots of people in the military, though, do it because of the stress and mental abuse of combat.

I think the fact that there aren't more combat related suicides is a tribute to the help the VA provides to those with PTSD.

Really? Even despite the lack of help soldiers tend to get with PTSD even now, and the high rate of suicides, combat-related and otherwise?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Sure, people commit suicide for all kinds of reasons. Lots of people in the military, though, do it because of the stress and mental abuse of combat.



Really? Even despite the lack of help soldiers tend to get with PTSD even now, and the high rate of suicides, combat-related and otherwise?

I have at least a dozen friends that all came back from Iraq/Afghanistan with PTSD. All received treatment for it at the VA, and all of them are still on active duty, doing very well.

They still have their issues. Combat related stress never truly goes away, but you are taught to handle it. A highschool friend of mine's father had issues stemming from Veitnam. He was mostly normal from day to day, but if you startled him, he would try to choke you out. I learned that one from experience.

People give the VA more crap than they deserve. They aren't perfect, but they help everyone they can.

 

[Magic Man]

I have at least a dozen friends that all came back from Iraq/Afghanistan with PTSD. All received treatment for it at the VA, and all of them are still on active duty, doing very well.

They still have their issues. Combat related stress never truly goes away, but you are taught to handle it. A highschool friend of mine's father had issues stemming from Veitnam. He was mostly normal from day to day, but if you startled him, he would try to choke you out. I learned that one from experience.

People give the VA more crap than they deserve. They aren't perfect, but they help everyone they can.

I'm glad to hear that your friends are doing well, but that doesn't override all of the other information on the topic. My wife is getting her degree in psychology, and she has been fascinated with soldiers and PTSD for a long time. I'm sure you and others have had good personal experiences in the matter, but the truth is that on the whole, the military doesn't do a good enough job of helping soldiers with the mental stress of their job.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I'm glad to hear that your friends are doing well, but that doesn't override all of the other information on the topic. My wife is getting her degree in psychology, and she has been fascinated with soldiers and PTSD for a long time. I'm sure you and others have had good personal experiences in the matter, but the truth is that on the whole, the military doesn't do a good enough job of helping soldiers with the mental stress of their job.

No system is perfect. Can the VA do more? Probably. Will it happen overnight? Not likely.

It doesn't help that the Gov't is broke.

 

[Kathryn]

I posted a link a couple of posts ago which explained that the majority of military suicides are apparently due to RELATIONSHIPS rather than combat issues, which is also the norm for the civilian population.

My son is in a non combat unit now in Korea. In spite of being far from "action," and in a unit which isn't even an infantry unit (he is in a trainer position - some sort of big guns, that's all I know), he has actually gotten much more help for his PTSD than he even WANTED. I mean, all he basically has to do is tell his first sgt that he's having trouble sleeping or that he feels jittery, and the next thing he knows, he's got an appt with a psychologist or psychiatrist and he's being treated like he was Prince Charles with a hangnail or something. And he's quite functional and there's no indication that he's unable to integrate all of this into his life and career in a healthy manner.

I am sure that medical treatment via the VA has a wide range of effectiveness and quality - but another thing that HAS to happen is that the soldiers themselves MUST step forward and be willing to seek help. This often isn't the case. I had to ride my son's rear end for about six months before he agreed to contacting a chaplain and "revealing" that he was having classic PTSD symptoms. The minute he admitted this (something he was embarrassed by and saw as a sign of weakness) he was referred to the help he needed and the treatment has been very successful. In the long run he's glad he did it, but initially he was very balky about taking any meds or going to "bare his soul" with a "shrink." He even got in some trouble because he wasn't taking his Ambien as directed. He simply didn't want to admit he had a problem, and that's very commmon, especially among macho young men.

You gotta admit you've got a problem before any treatment can be successful.

 

[Magic Man]

I posted a link a couple of posts ago which explained that the majority of military suicides are apparently due to RELATIONSHIPS rather than combat issues, which is also the norm for the civilian population.

Actually, that said that a good portion of suicides in the National Guard and Reserve were due to relationships and other things common to the civilian population too. The whole point of that article was the suicide rate specifically in the National Guard and Reserve; not in the military in general. Here's the quote (which I think you posted):

"Maj. Gen. Raymond Carpenter, acting director of the Army National Guard, said for his soldiers it is a "young white male problem," that does not appear to be linked to war deployments or lack of jobs. Instead, he said, about half the cases of Guard soldiers' suicides involved people who had some type of relationship problem with a spouse or partner."

My son is in a non combat unit now in Korea. In spite of being far from "action," and in a unit which isn't even an infantry unit (he is in a trainer position - some sort of big guns, that's all I know), he has actually gotten much more help for his PTSD than he even WANTED. I mean, all he basically has to do is tell his first sgt that he's having trouble sleeping or that he feels jittery, and the next thing he knows, he's got an appt with a psychologist or psychiatrist and he's being treated like he was Prince Charles with a hangnail or something. And he's quite functional and there's no indication that he's unable to integrate all of this into his life and career in a healthy manner.

I'm glad to hear that. I just wish that was the case most of the time. Sadly it isn't. It does seem to be getting better, though.

I am sure that medical treatment via the VA has a wide range of effectiveness and quality - but another thing that HAS to happen is that the soldiers themselves MUST step forward and be willing to seek help. This often isn't the case. I had to ride my son's rear end for about six months before he agreed to contacting a chaplain and "revealing" that he was having classic PTSD symptoms. The minute he admitted this (something he was embarrassed by and saw as a sign of weakness) he was referred to the help he needed and the treatment has been very successful. In the long run he's glad he did it, but initially he was very balky about taking any meds or going to "bare his soul" with a "shrink." He even got in some trouble because he wasn't taking his Ambien as directed. He simply didn't want to admit he had a problem, and that's very commmon, especially among macho young men.

You gotta admit you've got a problem before any treatment can be successful.

Right, and a lot of this comes from the military mindset that you're a pansy if you admit to physical or mental problems. That's part of how the military has to change to help the situation. If you offer help, but discourage people from using that help, the help doesn't do much good. It needs to be made much clearer that there's nothing inferior about you for having PTSD or for admitting that you have it. And when a soldier does bring it up, it needs to be acknowledged and addressed rather than being written off or ignored.

 

[Kathryn]

mball, how much personal or immediate family experience do you have with the VA system/military medical personnel and systems, combat veterans, the military lifestyle in general, deployments and/or PTSD?

Just curious.

 

[Where Is God]

I cant imagine the sketchy **** you have to see in the military, no one my age needs to experience that. Not now, and not really ever.

 

[Kathryn]

I cant imagine the sketchy **** you have to see in the military, no one my age needs to experience that. Not now, and not really ever.

You don't have a thing to worry about. It's an all volunteer military. If you can't handle it or feel it's not a good choice, you don't have to sign on the dotted line.

But there are plenty of strong young men and women who can and do willingly shoulder that job. It's their choice, as it's your choice not to. But don't try to put your own particular anxieties off on them.

 

[Where Is God]

You don't have a thing to worry about. It's an all volunteer military. If you can't handle it or feel it's not a good choice, you don't have to sign on the dotted line.

But there are plenty of strong young men and women who can and do willingly shoulder that job. It's their choice, as it's your choice not to. But don't try to put your own particular anxieties off on them.

I deal very well with violence and blood. I hate it but I can handle it. It is just my concern that young people may be effected in the long run but such things. That could be anger issues, anxiety, or whatever.

 

[Magic Man]

mball, how much personal or immediate family experience do you have with the VA system/military medical personnel and systems, combat veterans, the military lifestyle in general, deployments and/or PTSD?

Just curious.

Kathryn, what does that matter for anything?

Just curious.

 

[ninerbuff]

As you may know, most of my threads or topics are usually about religion. I would now like to step aside from all religious views to reveal to you a horrendous thought I had today.

I am old enough to die for my county.

Has anyone really ever thought or cared about this? Seriously, I am 17 years old and am eligible(with parental consent until next year) to go to war! Does this not immediately ring a bell to anyone? I am just beginning to start life and understand the world and it's beauty. It's my personal opinion that this age is way to young(not that I think any age is appropriate). There is just so much to experience in life that joining the military at this age should be illegal. It is so sad to hear all my friends and co workers talking about ioinin the military to go to college for free. Awesome, but what happens when you don't make it back in one piece, or non at all? College sounds insignificant compared to the beautiful life of a human wasted at war.

Join the Air Force. They don't war.............lol, my brother in law and sister in law both joined, did their stints and now are both in college getting degrees.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Join the Air Force. They don't war.............lol, my brother in law and sister in law both joined, did their stints and now are both in college getting degrees.

That's actually not accurate at all. AF augments the Army in outside the wire security and patrol units, as well as convoys. We attend the same combat training the Army does before a deployment.

I have a feeling were going to end up the Army Air Corp again sometime in the future.

 

[Where Is God]

Join the Air Force. They don't war.............lol, my brother in law and sister in law both joined, did their stints and now are both in college getting degrees.

I am a pacifist. No military for me.