Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That could be true, so I guess education and experience are the best medicine.
Most people are afraid of the unknown, why do you think so many people are afraid of death?
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These Vaccines Work Really Well
- Thread starter exchemist
- Start date
Most people are afraid of the unknown, why do you think so many people are afraid of death?
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
@exchemist
Do you have a view on mixing jabs? eg getting AZ first, then being offered Pfizer at your second...
Do you have a view on mixing jabs? eg getting AZ first, then being offered Pfizer at your second...
exchemist
Veteran Member
Not really. But I'm not aware anyone is recommending that, are they?
In principle I suppose it should work, since all of them end up getting the body to manufacture the spike protein of the virus. And in fact I see there is a trial in progress on that very issue: Covid trial in UK examines mixing different vaccines
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Well, the original time interval was extended by the government wasn't it and the pharmaceutical companies were not happy about that. And given there are less of one type (Pfizer) than another (AZ) I can easily see the scenario where people who have had the former one as their first end up being offered the latter for the second. I've read the Pfizer is more effective, has fewer side effects, has milder side effects and is a different type of vaccine (mRNA) to the AZ. So all in all, given I had the Pfizer I'm wondering how to respond if my second offering is an AZ...(given of course I don't trust this government at all).
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exchemist
Veteran Member
It's not the government that decides these things.
It's the medical regulatory agency, the MHRA. So I really don't think you need worry that some politician has his finger in the pie when it comes to vaccine safety or efficacy.
The pharma companies are by nature very conservative. Their lawyers will always want data to support every treatment regime. The judgement about extending the interval between doses to 12 weeks was scientifically impeccable and signed off by expert immunologists. The only reason there was no data to support it was because the pharma companies were under pressure to conclude their trials as fast as they could. So they were only able to test a reasonable minimum interval between shots, not the optimum interval. Immunologically a longer interval should be better in most cases, or so I understand.
The object of the trial I linked to is to see if giving a second dose of a different vaccine is effective. (There is no way it can't be safe, obviously.) I very much doubt anyone will propose trying that until this current trial is complete. But if the UK medical regulator gives it their blessing, I would have no hesitation in accepting a 2nd dose of a different vaccine.
ecco
Veteran Member
Where I live, when I scheduled, dates and times were set up for both shots (Pfizer).
exchemist
Veteran Member
This is not the practice in the UK, given the long interval between shots. We were contacted by the NHS for our first one and they will do the same for the second, in due course.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
and others. Just a pet peeve.
Ecco. It's more like if you have a fast create medicine X that just came on the market for, say, seizures. It's not known to have side affects as much as possible affects of seizures-science says so. It's also safe to take and more affective for some people than others, but science says its okay.
You go to the doctors and the doctors say take this medication (or, because you know your own body, you're concerned about the medication not only because it was fast created but because its so new compared to other drugs since there are thousands). The doctor says it's fine (cause that's science). Then you take the medication hoping the side affects are better than having seizures-you gain weight, have high blood pressure, and genuinely miserable. The side affects don't subside. Yes, the side affects may be better than having more than ten seizures a day (some people do) and at risk of sudden death in people with epilepsy (even for adults though mostly in children), why not converse with the doctor and change medication?
It's both the doctor's "and" patient's choice to take medications. The patient shouldn't be blamed or fussed at for not taking X-medication regardless if thousands of people can handle high blood pressure over seizures and science or god says so.
Science says it's fine but that is totally not the point.
There are many viruses and illnesses that may have cures or treatments if doctors where doing like they do with COVID vaccines and the seriousness they put to it. Though COVID is our immediate problem, I bet that when it's all over, all other illnesses aren't "that" much of an emergency compared to COVID vaccines would not be prioritized (there are many anyhow) and people die-many from some illnesses more than people of COVID if you compared the general populations to the deaths.
Instead of just going to get a vaccine the day it comes out, like any medical treatment, it helps to wait awhile to see how things go. Of course if fear or high concern (which is justified of course) makes you guys feel you should take the vaccine (or medication or other treatment) people do. But no doctor would push anyone to take any form of treatment they don't want to take when they are Not in a life and death situation at that moment to where it's crucial for them to do so. So, it's best not to fuss at people who don't want to take the vaccine and instead respect doctors and science that says that even though most people can take this vaccine that doesn't mean every person's body will react to it well.
A lot of you are missing the other half of science which says that not all medications will work for every person. If a person feels they are safer without the vaccine (say they don't go anywhere or in a place where there's many people), there is no need to take it. If you don't have epilepsy, why take medication just in case or prevent yourself from having a seizure?
I know this is long but I really do wish people won't use science as justification all people should take this vaccine. It's not medically ethical and it's based on fear not based on that individual person's health, morals, and personal conscious. Unless you're in an high populated environment, at high risk factor, or taking care of yourself or others with COVID, it really isn't crucial. It's a personal decision. Stop blaming people for it.
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exchemist
Veteran Member
It is perfectly medically ethical.
Your error in this post is to confuse the effect of drugs on the body, which most certainly can vary , sometimes quite a lot, from person to person, with vaccines.
A vaccine is not a drug. It is something that stimulates the body's own immune system to neutralise an invader. It is true that some people have stronger immune systems than others, so some will no doubt get better protection from the vaccine than others. But it will work on everyone to some degree and we know - we are not guessing or predicting, we know - from the tens of millions of people who have already been vaccinated, that the side effects are practically non-existent.
So what is the rationale for further delay? Given that tens of millions have had the vaccines with no trouble, how many more tens of millions will need to have it before you think, in your infinite personal wisdom, it is safe for you? 50 million? 100 million? A billion?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I can see the difference now. Though my thoughts are the same. Science says it's works but since one isn't in a life and death position, it's not ethical for any doctor to say "take this vaccine" (any medical treatment) without that patient's consent and his/her overall health. That's just basic medical ethics. If, for rare chance, a person gets sick from the vaccine and he or she says "but my doctor says it's okay", he or she can possibly get sued. The point isn't that it works. The point is it's a person's individual decision and medically ethical to make ones own choice and not take a medical treatment because they are peer pressured by scientists to do so.
The other problem is not knowing the meaning of risk. If I have the virus, Then I am at risk of giving someone COVID. If I don't have the virus, I am not. Yes, there are shoulds/coulds/maybes. Fear and anxiety feeds on maybes not always facts. That's actually a tall-tale sign of fear and anxiety is when people are afraid they have something (or may have it) so much their "concern" and emotions degrade other people who don't share their anxiety. Thankfully, there are COVID hotlines that help with that anxiety (if it becomes a medical condition). So, I'd say people should be less harsh on those who don't want to take this vaccine. Yes. It works. Many treatments work. That's really not the point.
The rationale for further delay? Depends on the person-their consciousness, morals, their health, what environment they are in, if they are around a lot of people, taking care of themselves or others with COVID, are they medical professionals, how old are they; there are a lot of factors.
Why did people decide to take this medicine overnight (literally) if it wasn't fear based?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Because the virus it's helping us with is far more deadly than tobacco when it's allowed to run free. And that is basically the case in America.
Like, we're supposed to be afraid of drugs, but this virus has now killed more people than all drugs out there. If we exclude tobacco it has killed more than all other drugs combined, recreational, street, prescription, otc, all of them.
America launched an endless war in Afghanistan and Iraq because on terrorist attack killed 3,000 Americans. There have been days when covid has killed over 4,000, and many days when the death toll has been over 3,000. This pandemic has put America through its deadliest days.
And no, it's not "literally overnight." That would mean someone was either against it or still deciding during the day, at some point during the night they decided to get it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Vaccines, like all medications administered and prescribed by healthcare providers (as well as OTC medications), are drugs.
drug
noun
noun: drug; plural noun: drugs
a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That, or it's probably irrelevant if that person is taking other health related measures to help prevent catching the disease. I'm a bit skeptical with the numbers. I was told by medical professional (or so have you-don't ask) that when someone has an underlying critical condition, if they develop COVID from that condition, they are marked down as dying from COVID and not the underlying condition in which "triggered" the virus. That and X many deaths in one week sounds fishy in itself.
But, anyway. I just see people run cahooz over this. Of course safe than sorry, but totally healthy people are running to get this vaccine because "maybe" they "could be" asymptomatic. Fear and me just don't get along like that. But all in all, I get the concern but just some things are pretty out there. If I choose between masks and vaccines, I'd choose vaccines. The mask issue is ridiculous. People should be allowed to be skeptical of medical treatments.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Wanna swap drug needles? AIDs, afterall, has never killed a single person. Unprotected sex with a prostitute, perhaps? HIV will not put you in the grave.
And, no, you can't develop covid from another illness. You get covid from that specific virus.
We Never Know
No Slack
"I'm a bit skeptical with the numbers. I was told by medical professional (or so have you-don't ask) that when someone has an underlying critical condition, if they develop COVID from that condition, they are marked down as dying from COVID and not the underlying condition in which "triggered" the virus."
If someone is dying from cancer(has 9 months to live), has a weakened immune system which causes them to contract the virus and because of the virus reaking havoc on their body they died in one month. Shouldn't the virus be listed as the cause of death?
If not for contracting the virus they would have lived longer.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Not sure where you're getting at with the unprotected swapping needles, sex, and the HIV won't put you in the grave.
I was thinking (and trying to look it up again) more of people with AIDs don't die of AIDs but of, say, pneumonia. People who had COVID don't die from COVID but from things like sepsis shock or respiratory failure. But I don't take things as is (of course). It's not a plague and not a gas, so I have my thoughts.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I see your point. I can't find my references to provide "evidence" but just saying over thousand people dying in one week, for example, isn't something I take as is. Unless the virus is an immediate death sentence, I do believe there's a combination of things involved and I also don't believe it's just not wearing mask and people not social distancing. The vast majority are, so gut feelings aren't science or god or anything, but it is what it is.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
No one dies of AIDs. It's all those confounding complications and opportunistic diseases.
With Covid it's about the same, except it's very different. Yes, the elderly and those with various health conditions are more likely to struggle with it. In this regard it's a good analogy with the AIDs things. Because few people in their right mind would take these risks, believing the number of AIDs related deaths to be way overblown and out of proportion because it's those other things people die from.
However, with covid, we must follow it through and acknowledge it quickly quits working because many people in good health, as well as those who are young have succumbed to covid and fallen victim to "long covid."
And we've already discussed this a bajillion times here. If anything, the reported number is lower than the "true count," both for cases and deaths.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I wonder how many died of AIDs when it first occurred that may not have been so if we had the appropriate treatments and thought we have today?
I still stand by my gut feeling. Regardless what people say, I still find something as big as this as a red flag to be highly self-conscious of what's going on besides the numbers on television and internet (or media presented) and arguments about masks and vaccines. I just know it's not a plague and it's not a gas, so people have the right to fear just being in the middle of their fear makes me bonkers.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Probably a great deal of them, as AIDs isn't the death sentence today that is was then.
And that we took so seriously that in the wake of the AIDs epidemic, and we'd figured out it is and had an idea of how it's transmitted, I remembering seeing a PSA in the middle of Saturday morning cartoon bloc even telling kids about it and to say no to sex, much like how they were telling us to say no to drugs back then.
As several countries have adequately and thoroughly demonstrated, when everybody does their part, they don't gather and mingle, and when they go out they stay distanced and properly wear a mask, we have little fear. Hardly anyone dies of it, and not as many people are getting sick. But when people go on about "me, me, me," they question and doubt things like masks and distancing, and they refuse to stay apart then so many people are getting sick with it that hospitals get flooded, make shift over-flow units get set up, people with other conditions are impacted and sometimes die from teh overloaded medical system, and morgues and crematories across the country can't keep up with demand. That's aren't businesses we want to see booming. But instead of a predictable stream of business, they are overworked and we need refrigerated trucks for the dead because there is too much work right now for businesses that revolve around death, and business is tragically booming.