There is no free will in Islam

[ThePainefulTruth]

Intervention and knowledge are often conflated. This is an error in reasoning.

Divine intervention imparts knowledge of God's existence, thus influencing our moral choices so that neither God nor we know for certain what we would have chosen if we were free from that knowledge.

"If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it's yours. If not, it never was." That applies to anything that loves, including God. How could God really know what we'd do if It wasn't looking over our shoulder? If God knew beforehand, then we didn't choose to do it, God preordained it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

First of all, sincere thanks for so clearly stating your thoughts, and reasoning. It's a very easy-to-understand OP, which is commonly not the case when people are presenting complex ideas or abstract concepts. Actually, let's face it, even when they're posting about simple topics, it's not always the case.

I asked a question similar to this to some Christians at one point, who had at least loosely expressed these type of beliefs, so I thought I'd paraphrase their answers here, as best I could understand it. Whilst I'm an atheist (and this is therefore purely intellectual for me), they at least had a coherent response. Be aware, this is based on my memory, but hopefully it provides the main thrust of their position. It seems applicable here;

God sits outside of time and space. For much the same reason that you can't take a rocket-ship into space and find Heaven, or God himself, you won't find God at a particular point in time. He is not limited to a time stream in the manner we are. Whilst we are born, then grow older, and think about time as a stream, God is ubiquitous. The reason he is aware of your 'fate' is not because it is predetermined, and not even because he knows you so well he already knows what you will choose. Instead, he's already seen what you have chosen.

He has already seen what you will do tomorrow. He knows your fate because he exists in the future, the past, and the present, all at once.

Like I said, I'm an atheist, so it's really just an intellectual exercise to me. But I guess that does make sense in terms of dealing with the cognitive dissonance of balancing fate and free will?

Thank you for your input and welcome! I think (for me at least) the reason why these types of discussions become complex is because of the fact that a lot of times religionists of the Abrahamic faith do not want deal with the problem of morality when it comes to free will. I think whenever you discuss free will almost certainly you'll get involved with morality. Let's face it, if I am not in control of my destiny then who can explain why murders happen? God would by default be blamed for it most certainly so of course from a religious philosophical standpoint we are in control of our destiny. However when we discuss the Islamic perspective of free will we run into the problem of Taqdeer (fate) because as the text states all souls have testified that God is our Lord and we will be called into account for that. My philosophy professor had put this subject perfectly for me:

(I, imperfectly paraphrase what he said):

"Pretend you're at home sitting on your recliner chair and in your home you have several flat screen T.V.'s. One T.V. shows past football games. One T.V. shows current games, and another shows future games all at the same time. God sees all in one sequence simultaneously as one watches all several football games all at once."

I guess this is the explanation to foreknowledge but lacks explanation of freewill.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Do you know you will die?
If you know you will die, does it make all the actions that lead up to that fate predetermined?

Fate does not require the fixation of events prior.

So… your destiny is written… God knows your destiny…
Do you assume that God chose your destiny?

That does not make sense. God can both give you the choice and know the outcome of the choice. God's knowledge does not make the choice any less yours to make.



What do you mean "foreknowledge"? What does this knowledge come before?
Was there ever a point in time that God did not know?

This knowledge exists, not within time, but rather outside of time or space. This is why it is "foreknowledge".

You want to say, "See, all things were written. There can be no free actions."
When were they written? They were written outside of time.
Do you say, "God did not know my actions until after I made them?"

Can you say, "I have no choice. What is written has caused my actions to be. God has doomed me ; I have not doomed myself."
At what point in time did that happen? This doom you think has happened has not happened. It is not written within time or space.

Well to answer your first sentence...I know I will die because all finite beings are....well.....finite. If that were true then my ancestors would be existing as we speak. As for the rest of this post I think you're making this a little complicated. I'm talking about the Islamic perspective of free will.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Hi,

Welcome back to RF, I'll try to explain the islamic perspective in regards to free will.
As Muslims we believe that we humans have free will, we can choose our path. We also believe in a concept called divine decree( al qadar)
This is often referred to as the Islamic version of pre-destination, even though it's not exactly the same. When we say pre-destination, people automatically think of everything being pre-determined, when it comes to the Islamic concept known as divine decree(qadr)in Arabic, this definition doesn’t really apply to it.

According to Islam, all of our actions and deeds have already been recorded and written down by God, and this recording has been done even before we were ever created. According to divine decree, everything that happens only happens by the will of God, therefore God has willed everything we are doing/have done. Allah mentions this in the verse you quoted in one of your posts.

"No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al Lawh Al Mahfooz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allaah” [al-Hadeed 57:22]

I don't think the islamic concept of divine decree contradicts free will.
We believe God is all-powerfull and all-knowing. So if God has these attributes, and possesses these attributes to perfection, which is what we expect from God, then He would know everything that happens before they happen.God doesn't need to wait until you do something for Him to know about it. If this was the case, that God didn’t know what you would do until you do it, this would then mean that God is not all knowing, and if God is not all knowing and is not perfect in His knowledge then He cannot be God. So based on the fact that God’s knowledge is perfect, that He knows everything, this means He also knows what you will do before you even do it because his knowledge is perfect.
For example God knew you would write a thread before you did based on His perfect attribute of being all knowing at the same time He didn't force or compel you to write it. You by your own free will and choice decided to write this thread. God simply knew you were going to write this thread because
He is all knowing, God didn’t need to wait until you posted it to learn about it.
Even though God has already recorded everything that will happen, again this is based on His perfect attribute of knowledge, you yourself don't know what is recorded. In my opinion people cannot use this as an excuse that their free will is somehow determined and they can’t really do anything because what will happen will happen. True, what will happen will happen, but you don’t know what will happen.What happens is based on our choices, we can’t put our hands up and say "well my actions have already been recorded so who cares" because we have no idea about our future actions, at the end of the day it’s our choices that are being made that lead to the actions we are doing.

So what is recorded, is based on what we chose to do, we were not forced to do it, we ourselves chose to commit that action, but God in His perfect knowledge, knew we would make that action and take that choice before we did either and already recorded it down.

For example let's say you managed to trime travel into the future. You managed to time travel to 40 years from now, to the year 2057 and you decided to record what people were doing and what you saw. Let's say you travelled back to 2017
and you had that book in which you recorded what the people of 2057 were doing, would that mean that a person alive now who would also be alive in 2057, the same person you managed to record seeing what they were doing , has no free will just because you have catched a small glimpse into their future?
I personally think that just because you know or saw what somebody was going to do, and you recorded it down, doesn’t infringe that persons free will or choice, like I said before it was the persons choice that eventually led to their action.

Thank you for you detailed response...

Let me ask, am I not playing out what has already been known? For example as you say Allah knew I would create this thread. Am I not playing out what is already known?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes, as I had explained it in my previous post that major events are already predetermined,
calamity and disasters are major events that affect everyone, for example what is happening
in Syria is a disaster, but it should happen as it's written and Muslims at this time will be
weak according to God's will, how we act and how we behave is our free will.

I may make it easy for you to understand by making a computer game as parable,
the game is already programmed by fixed events that should happen but you as
a player you have the choice how to move and how to act and you may win or lose.

But something that is "fixed" has determined the mobility of a thing. If I live in a two-story house my mobility is fixed based on the amount of space that exists in and around the house. I cannot infinitely move in or outside the house. My motion is determined on the amount of space that exist. Sure you can say I move but my mobility is determined on the space.

 

[wizanda]

Am I not playing out what is already known?

We don't play the game, the game plays us; we only have free choice or options...

Every option is already provided for us, we think we make our destiny; yet many things fall into place, and we're given options of a few paths to choose.

Sure you can say I move but my mobility is determined on the space.

Even if we're limited to only one option, many still go contrary to it...

Like a big problem is this idea convert or burn in Hell...

That is a fallacy, and the real option is as the last poster stated; we're inside a giant holographic reality, and if we say we don't believe the CPU exists, we're verging on mental...

The way all these individual separatist religions have concluded, there is multiple options to select; when there was only one, and that is what Islam meant (one religion, not two; one God, not one for each religion).

 

[FearGod]

But something that is "fixed" has determined the mobility of a thing. If I live in a two-story house my mobility is fixed based on the amount of space that exists in and around the house. I cannot infinitely move in or outside the house. My motion is determined on the amount of space that exist. Sure you can say I move but my mobility is determined on the space.

You're free to move all around earth.

 

[Muslim-UK]

 

[Sakeenah]

This is essentially how it works.



If God intervened and sent some people to be punished before they had done anything wrong, then what would he be punishing them for? We would argue that God is simply punishing people for no reason and rewarding others for no reason. How would this make sense?

@FearGod This explains why Allah tests us.

What I said is based on what(sunni) muslim theologians teach on taqdeer,you can look it up in the books of aqeedah.

 

[Sakeenah]

Thank you for you detailed response...

Let me ask, am I not playing out what has already been known? For example as you say Allah knew I would create this thread. Am I not playing out what is already known?

Yw, sorry I just realized that my post is a bit too long. I tried to summarize it, Muslim theologians wrote quite a few books on taqdeer.

Like I said in my previous post, you are playing out an action that you have chosen that is known by God. He is all knowing ,he would know everything that happens before they happen.God doesn't need to wait until you do something for Him to know about it.

 

[FearGod]

@FearGod This explains why Allah tests us.

What I said is based on what(sunni) muslim theologians teach on taqdeer,you can look it up in the books of aqeedah.

Still doesn't make sense, If God knows from the day I born whether I'll be in hell
or paradise then I'm programmed, it's as easy as 1+1 = 2

 

[FearGod]

He says in the video that the Satan will misguide us, but how will he
if our fate is already known, all efforts of the Satan will be useless,
or God knows what the Satan will do and then asking us to be aware of the Satan,
it doesn't make sense bro.

 

[FearGod]

I think people are explaining the terms God all knowing, all powerful ..etc
in a wrong way, for example if God is all powerful then he can create me as
a human being in a second, but that can't be as God made me in a process
which needs 9 months in a womb, no magic.

He's all powerful yes, but by logic, he can end our lives on earth, yes God can,
he can end the universe as he started it, yes he can, but not in a second, Noah
spent many years in building the ark, should God make it ready for Noah in
a minute, no he didn't.

There's science behind this universe and our creation, it isn't magic.

 

[Ponder This]

Divine intervention imparts knowledge of God's existence, thus influencing our moral choices so that neither God nor we know for certain what we would have chosen if we were free from that knowledge.

"If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it's yours. If not, it never was." That applies to anything that loves, including God. How could God really know what we'd do if It wasn't looking over our shoulder? If God knew beforehand, then we didn't choose to do it, God preordained it.

I know the apple will fall from the tree. How have I intervened?
Knowledge =/= Intervention

(I, imperfectly paraphrase what he said):

"Pretend you're at home sitting on your recliner chair and in your home you have several flat screen T.V.'s. One T.V. shows past football games. One T.V. shows current games, and another shows future games all at the same time. God sees all in one sequence simultaneously as one watches all several football games all at once."

I guess this is the explanation to foreknowledge but lacks explanation of freewill.

Do you change the outcomes of the football games by watching them? Please explain how you do this. It is a very useful ability to have.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I know the apple will fall from the tree. How have I intervened?
Knowledge =/= Intervention


Do you change the outcomes of the football games by watching them? Please explain how you do this. It is a very useful ability to have.

We're talking divine influence here, not the influence of gravity, or social influence. I'm pretty sure you know that, I just don't know if you're trying to fool me or yourself. A priest can tell you what to believe, but he can lie and you can choose whether to believe him or not. But God, being the embodiment of Truth, cannot lie; and being a divine creator, It has massive influence if you know It exists--much less if it's a pillar of cloud/fire that leads you around day and night and kills you if you gather sticks on the sabbath, or spill your seed on the ground, or touch the Arc etc.

 

[Muslim-UK]

He says in the video that the Satan will misguide us, but how will he
if our fate is already known, all efforts of the Satan will be useless,
or God knows what the Satan will do and then asking us to be aware of the Satan,
it doesn't make sense bro.

We have to remember, ALLAH swt is ALL Knowing. Live your life how you wish, and know that no one is judged unfairly. We choose our destination. Have you ever gone to do something wrong, had a moments pause where you felt guilty but did it anyway? Well that's free will for you.

Let's imagine we all die, we completely forget whatever happened on this Earth and are standing before God on Judgement Day. He, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent tells you to enter the Hell fire and tells others to enter Paradise. Is that just? Of course not, thus you have freewill to make the decisions that will determine your final destination.

If you decide to get out of bed at 6:30 and then think, 'Hmm God knows this was the time for me to get up' and decide to outwit God by staying in bed another 2 mins, it still doesn't mean He didn't know exactly what time you would rise. You can spend your whole life thinking about this and blaming God for your state of mind and actions, but ultimately it is YOUR own doing and ALLAH swt is not confined by the constraints of TIME.

Indeed, Allah knows the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And Allah is Seeing of what you do. Qur'an 49:18

God tells us, Satan is an open Enemy to us.
Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze. Qur'an 35:6

To blast his whispering clean out of the water, make wudu, listen to the Qur'an for as long as you can in Arabic using headphones whilst laying in bed. After a certain amount of time you will feel him flee in terror, trust me.

Salam

 

[Muslim-UK]

Philosophy drives one to question everything and ultimately tie oneself in knots. Put aside personal desires and seek to please God.

 

[FearGod]

We have to remember, ALLAH swt is ALL Knowing. Live your life how you wish, and know that no one is judged unfairly. We choose our destination. Have you ever gone to do something wrong, had a moments pause where you felt guilty but did it anyway? Well that's free will for you.

Let's imagine we all die, we completely forget whatever happened on this Earth and are standing before God on Judgement Day. He, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent tells you to enter the Hell fire and tells others to enter Paradise. Is that just? Of course not, thus you have freewill to make the decisions that will determine your final destination.

If you decide to get out of bed at 6:30 and then think, 'Hmm God knows this was the time for me to get up' and decide to outwit God by staying in bed another 2 mins, it still doesn't mean He didn't know exactly what time you would rise. You can spend your whole life thinking about this and blaming God for your state of mind and actions, but ultimately it is YOUR own doing and ALLAH swt is not confined by the constraints of TIME.

Indeed, Allah knows the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth. And Allah is Seeing of what you do. Qur'an 49:18

God tells us, Satan is an open Enemy to us.
Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze. Qur'an 35:6

To blast his whispering clean out of the water, make wudu, listen to the Qur'an for as long as you can in Arabic using headphones whilst laying in bed. After a certain amount of time you will feel him flee in terror, trust me.

Salam

What evidence from the quran you got that confirms that God knows
who'll go to hell and who'll go to paradise from the day they born?

 

[Muslim-UK]

What evidence from the quran you got that confirms that God knows
who'll go to hell and who'll go to paradise from the day they born?

Salam,

By definition GOD is Omniscience,

Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs. [39:62]

Allah swt created us, the past and the future is known to him since he is all time. The Qur'an also says:

[He is] Knower of the Ghaeeb [the Invisible and the Visible] and the witnessed, the Grand, the Exalted. [13:9]

Elsewhere:

Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. [31:34]

As you can see the hour, Day of Judgement is in the future, thus Allah swt knows the future.

 

[FearGod]

Salam,

By definition GOD is Omniscience,

Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs. [39:62]

Allah swt created us, the past and the future is known to him since he is all time. The Qur'an also says:

[He is] Knower of the Ghaeeb [the Invisible and the Visible] and the witnessed, the Grand, the Exalted. [13:9]

Elsewhere:

Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. [31:34]

As you can see the hour, Day of Judgement is in the future, thus Allah swt knows the future.

Where did it say that God knows who'll be in hell and who'll be in paradise?