There is no free will in Islam

[Epic Beard Man]

I disagree with the OP on the issue...

I do not think freewill means one makes a conscious decision, weighing the pros and cons..

On the contrary, I think freewill is more attuned to making a choice *against* the overwhelming desire to do the opposite.

That is, when given the choice of reading that big, voluminous, boring book for my thesis now in the middle of the night when I'm already tired, vs. going to bed, the mind favors going to bed. But I exercise my freewill and decide that my choice of reading that book is what is best for me and do that!

So this is freewill.

I believe that freewill and fate interplay to a profound extent in every human's life.

It is said, "Thoughts become actions, actions determine the outcome, and outcome decides on the fate".

We all have only limited choice to exercise freewill (go against odds and choose an action for its goodness/correctness) and majority of the people cannot choose to forgive his dire enemy, when fate favors him murdering the enemy in a worst fit of rage...

BUT, when one practices for long and hard, to tame his mind into thinking good/going against all odds, then over the course of time, his actions and his thoughts by nature will get realigned for a better outcome... and then he will have better ability to exercise his freewill for choosing wiser actions even amidst major calamities.

ISLAM prepares one for such a state of having greater potential for wiser actions, by dictating to mankind, to tame and cultivate his mind every single day out of 5 times prayer, charity, fasting (the 5 pillars of Islam) and so forth.

Although this was a poetic way of describing your idea of free will, it still does not address the issue at hand when discussing Taqdeer.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Independent of any religion(s), I think the free will question is ultimately an ill-formed question.

As for Islam, if we follow the OP's line of thinking one conclusion that ought to be troubling for Muslims is that Allah is shown to be anything but merciful, as he has decided ahead of time which of his creations to doom to eternal hell fire.

That is the most perplexing one that I have issue with. It would appear that according to Al-Hadid verse 22, whatever befalls me was already preordained by God. In terms of morality and judging God based on this I'd rather leave that for another discussion so I refrain from judging. It just seems that according to theology, and the articles of Taqdeer, nothing I do is free, if my actions were performed outside space/time in the mind of God.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

First of all, sincere thanks for so clearly stating your thoughts, and reasoning. It's a very easy-to-understand OP, which is commonly not the case when people are presenting complex ideas or abstract concepts. Actually, let's face it, even when they're posting about simple topics, it's not always the case.

I asked a question similar to this to some Christians at one point, who had at least loosely expressed these type of beliefs, so I thought I'd paraphrase their answers here, as best I could understand it. Whilst I'm an atheist (and this is therefore purely intellectual for me), they at least had a coherent response. Be aware, this is based on my memory, but hopefully it provides the main thrust of their position. It seems applicable here;

God sits outside of time and space. For much the same reason that you can't take a rocket-ship into space and find Heaven, or God himself, you won't find God at a particular point in time. He is not limited to a time stream in the manner we are. Whilst we are born, then grow older, and think about time as a stream, God is ubiquitous. The reason he is aware of your 'fate' is not because it is predetermined, and not even because he knows you so well he already knows what you will choose. Instead, he's already seen what you have chosen.

He has already seen what you will do tomorrow. He knows your fate because he exists in the future, the past, and the present, all at once.

Like I said, I'm an atheist, so it's really just an intellectual exercise to me. But I guess that does make sense in terms of dealing with the cognitive dissonance of balancing fate and free will?

 

[Confucian Mormon Buddhist]

Not to derail this with philosophy, but it seems to me that even the religions which have free will are still predestined. Your decisions are based on the state of your mind at a given moment, and that in turn is determined by the circumstances around you. If you follow the butterfly effect, you could trace, say, your decision of what to eat for lunch back to the first movements of atoms.

If God knows the future, and the future is determined by the present, then God predetermined everything.

 

[Aiviu]

Thank you for your input but I was really hoping we can relate this to the subject. However I am sure God has a "plan" when it comes to the human will to do things. My subject is merely about (in general) that in Islam, God has decreed human being action. Personally I'm perfectly fine that God has made it such a way where there is no "will" rather the illusion of will, and that all actions are determined by HIM.

good luck.

 

[eldios]

So we are mere puppets of the puppet master?

Yes. Once you learn how we're created, then you can understand how it's impossible for human beings to create anything including decisions.

 

[Ponder This]

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

Do you know you will die?
If you know you will die, does it make all the actions that lead up to that fate predetermined?

Fate does not require the fixation of events prior.

So… your destiny is written… God knows your destiny…
Do you assume that God chose your destiny?

That does not make sense. God can both give you the choice and know the outcome of the choice. God's knowledge does not make the choice any less yours to make.

But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

What do you mean "foreknowledge"? What does this knowledge come before?
Was there ever a point in time that God did not know?

This knowledge exists, not within time, but rather outside of time or space. This is why it is "foreknowledge".

You want to say, "See, all things were written. There can be no free actions."
When were they written? They were written outside of time.
Do you say, "God did not know my actions until after I made them?"

Can you say, "I have no choice. What is written has caused my actions to be. God has doomed me ; I have not doomed myself."
At what point in time did that happen? This doom you think has happened has not happened. It is not written within time or space.

 

[wizanda]

Islam states that it is the truest religion among all the Abrahamic faiths.

The Quran states not to make distinction (2:285) among the Messengers globally (10:47).... Knowing the Abrahamic texts (3:84) is a start to being a Muslim.

Islam is to accept the Oneness ascribed in the Quran, that Abraham, Moses, Yeshua, etc followed without a religious texts as guidance; they all just accepted the Oneness of God, and lived it.

God knew my fate in a 2D universe

2D is like a drawing on a piece of paper; we're in a 13 dimension reality to my knowledge.

what freedom do I have if my fate has already been fixed?

Our fates destination is already known (8D), that isn't fixed in this linear perspective (4D); God makes every allocation for us to change along the way, and hopefully reach the right destination.

Sure I can choose to convert to avoid hell, but that conversion would be insincere because I choose to convert to avoid punishment.

Can the actors in such a play, deviate from what it is written?

This is a problem in comprehension; God doesn't dictate what must happen, else there would not be such evils in the world.

God is like a CPU manifesting a holographic universe, and we're characters in a Massive Multiplayer Online Game.

We choose the destiny, God just set the destinations, and gave us warnings in every language the same.

So your question isn't about only accepting one book, and thinking that is sufficient; the Quran informs that we're to accept all, that the arrogant unbelievers pick and choose which books (4:150-151), and deny there can be further revelations (40:34-35).

Converting to the made up scholarly version of 'Islam', is sadly lacking in so many ways of being a loyal servant of God (Muslim); if you're a seeker of truth, then read everything, try to understand what is really going on, do everything possible to get closer to knowing God...

That is the real Islam, and there will be many hypocrites, and as such unbelievers, who thought their weak attempts at being servants of the Most High were worthy to be counted.

 

[LukeS]

Free will. Colourless green ideas sleep furiously, too.


"Free" being such a poorly defined idea, that either asserting it or denying it, are both equally odd.

 

[Sakeenah]

Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

Hi,

Welcome back to RF, I'll try to explain the islamic perspective in regards to free will.
As Muslims we believe that we humans have free will, we can choose our path. We also believe in a concept called divine decree( al qadar)
This is often referred to as the Islamic version of pre-destination, even though it's not exactly the same. When we say pre-destination, people automatically think of everything being pre-determined, when it comes to the Islamic concept known as divine decree(qadr)in Arabic, this definition doesn’t really apply to it.

According to Islam, all of our actions and deeds have already been recorded and written down by God, and this recording has been done even before we were ever created. According to divine decree, everything that happens only happens by the will of God, therefore God has willed everything we are doing/have done. Allah mentions this in the verse you quoted in one of your posts.

"No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al Lawh Al Mahfooz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allaah” [al-Hadeed 57:22]

I don't think the islamic concept of divine decree contradicts free will.
We believe God is all-powerfull and all-knowing. So if God has these attributes, and possesses these attributes to perfection, which is what we expect from God, then He would know everything that happens before they happen.God doesn't need to wait until you do something for Him to know about it. If this was the case, that God didn’t know what you would do until you do it, this would then mean that God is not all knowing, and if God is not all knowing and is not perfect in His knowledge then He cannot be God. So based on the fact that God’s knowledge is perfect, that He knows everything, this means He also knows what you will do before you even do it because his knowledge is perfect.
For example God knew you would write a thread before you did based on His perfect attribute of being all knowing at the same time He didn't force or compel you to write it. You by your own free will and choice decided to write this thread. God simply knew you were going to write this thread because
He is all knowing, God didn’t need to wait until you posted it to learn about it.
Even though God has already recorded everything that will happen, again this is based on His perfect attribute of knowledge, you yourself don't know what is recorded. In my opinion people cannot use this as an excuse that their free will is somehow determined and they can’t really do anything because what will happen will happen. True, what will happen will happen, but you don’t know what will happen.What happens is based on our choices, we can’t put our hands up and say "well my actions have already been recorded so who cares" because we have no idea about our future actions, at the end of the day it’s our choices that are being made that lead to the actions we are doing.

So what is recorded, is based on what we chose to do, we were not forced to do it, we ourselves chose to commit that action, but God in His perfect knowledge, knew we would make that action and take that choice before we did either and already recorded it down.

For example let's say you managed to trime travel into the future. You managed to time travel to 40 years from now, to the year 2057 and you decided to record what people were doing and what you saw. Let's say you travelled back to 2017
and you had that book in which you recorded what the people of 2057 were doing, would that mean that a person alive now who would also be alive in 2057, the same person you managed to record seeing what they were doing , has no free will just because you have catched a small glimpse into their future?
I personally think that just because you know or saw what somebody was going to do, and you recorded it down, doesn’t infringe that persons free will or choice, like I said before it was the persons choice that eventually led to their action.

 

[FearGod]

“No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-mahfuz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah."

Surah Al-Hadid, Verses 22, 23

According to one source it states:

"The verse also shows how fruitless it is to indulge in lengthy analysis after an event, of the various possibilities that could have materialized if an alternative course had been taken.We are being assured that it’s pointless to grieve about what we missed of fortune, because if it had been destined for us, we wouldn’t have missed it. Complaining about the situation or experience intended for us, however disagreeable, is also futile, for we couldn’t have escaped it whatever we might have done to avoid it."

Source:Quranic Reflections – Belief in Allah’s Decree [Surah Al-Hadid (22, 23)]

It would seem whatever befalls on us is already decreed and inescapable....Does not sound like free will to me.

Yes, as I had explained it in my previous post that major events are already predetermined,
calamity and disasters are major events that affect everyone, for example what is happening
in Syria is a disaster, but it should happen as it's written and Muslims at this time will be
weak according to God's will, how we act and how we behave is our free will.

I may make it easy for you to understand by making a computer game as parable,
the game is already programmed by fixed events that should happen but you as
a player you have the choice how to move and how to act and you may win or lose.

 

[FearGod]

Hi,

Welcome back to RF, I'll try to explain the islamic perspective in regards to free will.
As Muslims we believe that we humans have free will, we can choose our path. We also believe in a concept called divine decree( al qadar)
This is often referred to as the Islamic version of pre-destination, even though it's not exactly the same. When we say pre-destination, people automatically think of everything being pre-determined, when it comes to the Islamic concept known as divine decree(qadr)in Arabic, this definition doesn’t really apply to it.

According to Islam, all of our actions and deeds have already been recorded and written down by God, and this recording has been done even before we were ever created. According to divine decree, everything that happens only happens by the will of God, therefore God has willed everything we are doing/have done. Allah mentions this in the verse you quoted in one of your posts.

"No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al Lawh Al Mahfooz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allaah” [al-Hadeed 57:22]

I don't think the islamic concept of divine decree contradicts free will.
We believe God is all-powerfull and all-knowing. So if God has these attributes, and possesses these attributes to perfection, which is what we expect from God, then He would know everything that happens before they happen.God doesn't need to wait until you do something for Him to know about it. If this was the case, that God didn’t know what you would do until you do it, this would then mean that God is not all knowing, and if God is not all knowing and is not perfect in His knowledge then He cannot be God. So based on the fact that God’s knowledge is perfect, that He knows everything, this means He also knows what you will do before you even do it because his knowledge is perfect.
For example God knew you would write a thread before you did based on His perfect attribute of being all knowing at the same time He didn't force or compel you to write it. You by your own free will and choice decided to write this thread. God simply knew you were going to write this thread because
He is all knowing, God didn’t need to wait until you posted it to learn about it.
Even though God has already recorded everything that will happen, again this is based on His perfect attribute of knowledge, you yourself don't know what is recorded. In my opinion people cannot use this as an excuse that their free will is somehow determined and they can’t really do anything because what will happen will happen. True, what will happen will happen, but you don’t know what will happen.What happens is based on our choices, we can’t put our hands up and say "well my actions have already been recorded so who cares" because we have no idea about our future actions, at the end of the day it’s our choices that are being made that lead to the actions we are doing.

So what is recorded, is based on what we chose to do, we were not forced to do it, we ourselves chose to commit that action, but God in His perfect knowledge, knew we would make that action and take that choice before we did either and already recorded it down.

For example let's say you managed to trime travel into the future. You managed to time travel to 40 years from now, to the year 2057 and you decided to record what people were doing and what you saw. Let's say you travelled back to 2017
and you had that book in which you recorded what the people of 2057 were doing, would that mean that a person alive now who would also be alive in 2057, the same person you managed to record seeing what they were doing , has no free will just because you have catched a small glimpse into their future?
I personally think that just because you know or saw what somebody was going to do, and you recorded it down, doesn’t infringe that persons free will or choice, like I said before it was the persons choice that eventually led to their action.

Sorry sister, it doesn't make sense.

If our actions are already predetermined and fixed and that God knows already
everything then no need to test us, God should create and send the bad ones
directly to hell and the good ones to paradise, he's all knowing.

 

[FearGod]

Thank you for joining. Perhaps you care to shed light on the following:

(Out of respect for Muslims I say in the following):

In the Name of Allah, The Merciful, The Compassionate

Surah 7:172

"When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful"

According to Islamic theology there are five stages of Taqdeer (fate) and among them is the covenant established by the progeny of Adam and his descendants. It would appear that all humans have testified that God is our Lord, and that subsequently we will be called into account for it. It would also appear that God knows/knew our fate outside our time and space. My point is given the knowledge of this, how am I acting freely if my fate has already been fixed according to Islamic theology? It would seem that no matter what changes I've made in my life there is no absolute freedom since God knew my choices. I'm merely playing them out in existence. I therefore believe that in relation to Taqdeer, there truly is no free will in Islam. My actions prior to my existence on earth were already played out in "God's mind."

I guess the challenge would be, that if God didn't know would mean he is not omniscient.

The verse 7:172 is about pre-existence on earth, it's the spiritual realm.
It's like discussing the unknown and how the universe came from non existence,
but it's what we call the Fitra, everyone even the little child will think about God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am not an expert on Islam, but the term 'Free will' is bandied about a lot in forums, and sometimes people argue about whether Paul teaches predestiny or Jesus teaches it etc. I'm aware of this term. It is an inaccurate term that is an exaggeration of the term 'Conscience'. I think the term 'Free will' is confusing and does not address the skill we each have to decide what is right or wrong. I think it is obvious we are shaped by our environment (predestiny not free-will), however our conscience remains and is in each of us. Sometimes kings or enslavers will try to tell us that we don't know right from wrong and that we need them. To help prevent such a terrible situation every parent much teach their child about their inner conscience. Having a conscience doesn't mean that there is no such thing as predestiny or that apple seeds can choose to be oranges. It just means we each have the potential to skillfully determine right from wrong.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Dwarves are short and they smell bad. Either that will mean something or it will not.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

For man (the only apparently capable creature on Earth) to have free will (that is MORAL free will), we cannot have interaction with, and thus be influenced by, any god(s). Any form of "fate" or predestination makes free will impossible.

 

[Repox]

Humans have freewill and, unlike God, they have no prior knowledge of outcomes. I don't believe God favors one human over another because of their religion. It depends on God's morality, which may or may not agree with human morality. For mortal creatures, physical laws influence freewill choices along the arrow of time, and obedience to God's morality is most important for God's approval. It doesn't make any difference if we apply theological or philosophical frameworks, humans cannot escape the consequences of their actions. For angels in heaven, interactions with God constitutes a record of divine accord.

 

[Ponder This]

For example God knew you would write a thread before you did based on His perfect attribute of being all knowing at the same time He didn't force or compel you to write it. You by your own free will and choice decided to write this thread. God simply knew you were going to write this thread because
He is all knowing, God didn’t need to wait until you posted it to learn about it.

This is essentially how it works.

If our actions are already predetermined and fixed and that God knows already
everything then no need to test us, God should create and send the bad ones
directly to hell and the good ones to paradise, he's all knowing.

If God intervened and sent some people to be punished before they had done anything wrong, then what would he be punishing them for? We would argue that God is simply punishing people for no reason and rewarding others for no reason. How would this make sense?

For man (the only apparently capable creature on Earth) to have free will (that is MORAL free will), we cannot have interaction with, and thus be influenced by, any god(s). Any form of "fate" or predestination makes free will impossible.

Intervention and knowledge are often conflated. This is an error in reasoning.

Humans have freewill and, unlike God, they have no prior knowledge of outcomes.

If you hold a book in the air and then let go, we know that the book will fall. This is some knowledge of outcomes.

The Apple and the Tree
We can know the apple will fall from the tree, but not cause the apply to fall from the tree.
The tree grows the apple. The apple ripens. The apple falls from the tree. We know all of this.
If we intervene, then we pluck the apple from the tree before it falls. Intervention and knowledge are not the same thing.

When it comes to free will vs determinism, people seem unwilling to accept that our reality has a dual nature.

The Double Slit Experiment
When scientists examined light in the double-slit experiment, they had two models:

A. Light is a particle
B. Light is a wave​

When they examined light as a wave, they observed the interference pattern created by light when it passes through the double slit in a wall, but they couldn't figure out which slit the light passed through.
When they examined light as a photon particle, they could determine which slit the photon passed through, but then they couldn't see the interference pattern.

Eventually scientists decided that light had a dual nature: that it behaved both as a particle and as a wave.

Greek Model for Knowledge
The greeks also understood that something can have a dual nature.
They said knowledge consists of logos and gnosis.
Logos is like knowledge from reading books and gnosis is like knowledge that comes from experiencing something. It is possible to have logos but not gnosis. It is possible to have gnosis but not logos. It is possible to have both logos and gnosis. It is possible to have neither logos nor gnosis. But knowledge in the abstract is not solely logos nor solely gnosis.

Conclusions
So why do people get caught up on the dual nature of free will and predestination?
People will say that you can't know something without causing it to happen it even though we know all sorts of things without causing them to occur. And then they will say that because you can predetermine some things, you can't have free will (even though they are unable to predetermine all things).

Why refuse to accept the dual nature of reality?

 

[FearGod]

If God intervened and sent some people to be punished before they had done anything wrong, then what would he be punishing them for? We would argue that God is simply punishing people for no reason and rewarding others for no reason. How would this make sense?

Yes we have the free will,we may do good and we may do bad, this makes sense.

 

[Repox]

Epic Beard Man said, "If you hold a book in the air and then let go, we know that the book will fall. This is some knowledge of outcomes."

It is not the same as God having knowledge. A human guesses concerning the outcome, God knows with absolute certainty. More complex events are better examples. As an example, an army facing an enemy on the battlefield. What is the outcome? It is unlikely, a person could know the course of the battle, causalities, winning or losing, etc. However, God would know the outcome of the battle in perfect detail.

Without symbolic communication abilities, humans would be similar to other species. In short, humans are not special, they just think they are special.

Religion cannot eliminate the truth about humans. Without them, nature would flourish.