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There is no free will in Islam

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?
A very well thought out piece, @Epic Beard Man
I wish I had reasonable answers for you but once one gets past the superficial dogma in Islam there isn't a great deal of depth beyond that superficial layer. I'll let our friendly Muslims answer if they deem it worthy of a response. @Godobeyer @FearGod @firedragon @Gharib
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Independent of any religion(s), I think the free will question is ultimately an ill-formed question.

As for Islam, if we follow the OP's line of thinking one conclusion that ought to be troubling for Muslims is that Allah is shown to be anything but merciful, as he has decided ahead of time which of his creations to doom to eternal hell fire.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
how do I have free will knowing this?
Because we're in 4D linear time, and God is beyond 8D infinite time...

So imagine there is a pool, and we chuck a pebble in; we can work out the fractals of every ripple that will take place, and see the whole of linear time, at the moment the pebble was thrown.

In Heaven it is like the pool didn't even need to exist, it is only an imagination from the Source.

Thus within this linear time frame, everything is already completed, and can be seen from an infinite scope.... Thus we have free will, it is just already known where we'll arrive. :innocent:
 

eldios

Active Member
Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

It appears that human beings do all the killing and other evil acts but humans didn't create anything. They are only doing the will of God.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
 

Viraja

Jaya Jagannatha!
I disagree with the OP on the issue...

I do not think freewill means one makes a conscious decision, weighing the pros and cons..

On the contrary, I think freewill is more attuned to making a choice *against* the overwhelming desire to do the opposite.

That is, when given the choice of reading that big, voluminous, boring book for my thesis now in the middle of the night when I'm already tired, vs. going to bed, the mind favors going to bed. But I exercise my freewill and decide that my choice of reading that book is what is best for me and do that!

So this is freewill.

I believe that freewill and fate interplay to a profound extent in every human's life.

It is said, "Thoughts become actions, actions determine the outcome, and outcome decides on the fate".

We all have only limited choice to exercise freewill (go against odds and choose an action for its goodness/correctness) and majority of the people cannot choose to forgive his dire enemy, when fate favors him murdering the enemy in a worst fit of rage...

BUT, when one practices for long and hard, to tame his mind into thinking good/going against all odds, then over the course of time, his actions and his thoughts by nature will get realigned for a better outcome... and then he will have better ability to exercise his freewill for choosing wiser actions even amidst major calamities.

ISLAM prepares one for such a state of having greater potential for wiser actions, by dictating to mankind, to tame and cultivate his mind every single day out of 5 times prayer, charity, fasting (the 5 pillars of Islam) and so forth.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
We do not have 'free will', whatever that means, it's an illusion. Your decisions are made before you become consciously aware of them, they are made deep within your mind, accessing your entire life history..... Here is the way Marvin Minsky puts it in his book "Society of Mind":
"Everything that happens in our universe is either completely determined by what's already happened in the past or else depends, in part, on random chance. Everything, including that which happens in our brains, depends on these and only these: A set of fixed, deterministic laws, or a purely random set of accidents. There is no room on either side for any third alternative. Whatever actions we may 'choose', they cannot make the slightest change in what might otherwise have been - because those rigid, natural laws already caused the states of mind that caused us to decide that way. And if that choice was in part made by chance - it still leaves nothing for us to decide."
 

Viraja

Jaya Jagannatha!
I believe the following saying has something to do with 'freewill' -

thoughts_become_words_become_actions_become_destiny_vinyl_wall_decal_9039ebff.jpg
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
A very well thought out piece, @Epic Beard Man
I wish I had reasonable answers for you but once one gets past the superficial dogma in Islam there isn't a great deal of depth beyond that superficial layer. I'll let our friendly Muslims answer if they deem it worthy of a response. @Godobeyer @FearGod @firedragon @Gharib

Thank you dear @YmirGF

I believe there's a misunderstanding that everything is already predetermined by God
which means we have no choice since our fate is already predetermined and it actually
conflicts with God's message which is all about guidance.

If God controls our fate and our acts then why the test, why to ask for forgiveness,
why to make an appeal for God to help us when facing difficulties, if everything
is already predetermined and programmed then nothing will be changed and no
need to be guided.

Some major events are predetermined by God and it should happen according to
God's will and it's made for a purpose which I have no knowledge about, one example
is the born of the state of Israel and the final world war which will be a destructive war,
but why God wants such thing to happen, I don't know.
 

Aiviu

Active Member
Excuse me as I've been away for quite some time off this forum so let me say in advance, that I apologize if this subject as been discussed ad nauseum. Before I present my argument I wanted to discuss basic concepts for others when discussing the concept of free will. To have free will is to be an agent with the ability to choose the course of his or her action. Will, and subsequent courses of action depends on a rational faculty which related to a persons cognition, and as such the intellect presents various things to the will as "good" under some unique description. For example, Aaliyah thinks of walking her dog, and her intellect thinks about walking the dog as good for the health and welfare of the dog. However, when considering this we must also consider the paradigmatic of free action, such as whether to choose or not choose to do a certain action such as looking at weather etc (ex "it's raining so it may not be good to walk my dog").

Understanding this, I reflect David Hume in his book "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding," believes that liberty, is simply the “power of acting or of not acting, according to the determination of the will: that is, if we choose to remain at rest, we may; if we choose to move, we also may.…" We either choose to act or not act, and an agent is free so long as no external event prevents action. So in the case of Aaliyah, she may not be able to take her dog walking if its a severe rain storm outside despite her desire to take her dog for a walk. Now I do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on the hierarchal foundations of will and such but just to start at a foundation of the basic understanding of freewill and some philosophical ideas of free will.

According to Islam there is divine ordination, or pre-destination where all things are written down on a preserved tablet called "Al-Lauḥ al-Maḥfūẓ" (All that happens will happen). To be clear this is not to say that action are determined by what is written on this preserved tablet, but all actions that happen are "written on the tablet" due to God's foreknowledge of all things. But what becomes problematic for me is looking at the four stages of Taqdeer (fate). Apparently after Adam, God took two covenants, one, which all souls testify that God is their Lord and two, covenant is taken from the children of Adam through the Prophets that they will believe in Divine Oneness and follow his revelation.

Now going by the first covenant, God has already decreed from a spiritual view, which souls will go to paradise and hell. Since good action along with going by the second covenant are contingencies, how does one have absolute agency in relation to these covenants? I must concede that although I am freely typing in this thread, God knew my action and knew when I'm done, I'll close my laptop and go about my business. But what I find problematic is that from a spiritual/metaphysical point of view whatever actions I commit in this life, were already done outside time/space (I saw outside time and space based on the foreknowledge of God knowing all actions and sequences outside our time and space).

I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

The origin of free will is the will of human to feel loved. How it feels to be alive with it. It came from the first and will be remembered to the last. In meantime there is life. The choice to do things which are in its nature. In this aspect our free will is Gods will. All other actions are maybe reasoned with free will until man will realize how those actions contradict the origin of his will. Human merely determines themself.

Gods mind is in your future in a moment where you cease to existed. But eternally alive within God that you are loved thus made to be still alive. The deniers will have no free will anymore to reach the life in God.

And before you ask why God started it at all. Only in their end, humans will understand.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I understand the Islamic view of decree in the sense of human capability, however the problem lies in the spiritual view that all actions were already determined and that God knows the eventual destination of all humans prior to them experiencing their reward and punishment. In God's mind, I have already performed my actions, and so as I exist, I'm merely playing out those actions, so again, how do I have free will knowing this?

I suspect from an Islamic view you're going to have to accept there is no true free will. You can't do other than what Allah has foreseen what you would do.

So why go through the drama if the outcome is predetermined?

Well, all movies/plays you watch, are pre-scripted. The outcome is know. Yet you still experience throughout the revelation of the play the emotions, the thoughts. You feel the drama.

The reason I would assume is to allow you to have the experiences created by each moment of revelation to you of Allah's plan. Maybe it's Allah's way of teaching you/preparing you for what is to come. Perhaps a time of true free will where the experience you gain now during the revelation to you of Allah's plan will benefit you.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
A very well thought out piece, @Epic Beard Man
I wish I had reasonable answers for you but once one gets past the superficial dogma in Islam there isn't a great deal of depth beyond that superficial layer. I'll let our friendly Muslims answer if they deem it worthy of a response. @Godobeyer @FearGod @firedragon @Gharib

Thanks for tag me :)

@Epic Beard Man
Allah did give us free will.
In Islam God knows what will happen (so you find in Quran events in past tense but it's talk about future ;) ),yes He does not force you to do bad deeds or good deeds ,that's up to you,you're hands deeds :)
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
A very well thought out piece, @Epic Beard Man
I wish I had reasonable answers for you but once one gets past the superficial dogma in Islam there isn't a great deal of depth beyond that superficial layer. I'll let our friendly Muslims answer if they deem it worthy of a response. @Godobeyer @FearGod @firedragon @Gharib

Thank you! I should have added some extreme views within the sects of Sunnism regarding this but I did not want to type a novel.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Because we're in 4D linear time, and God is beyond 8D infinite time...

So imagine there is a pool, and we chuck a pebble in; we can work out the fractals of every ripple that will take place, and see the whole of linear time, at the moment the pebble was thrown.

In Heaven it is like the pool didn't even need to exist, it is only an imagination from the Source.

Thus within this linear time frame, everything is already completed, and can be seen from an infinite scope.... Thus we have free will, it is just already known where we'll arrive. :innocent:

Interesting....

However I cannot perceive Heaven but I can perceive Islamic theology in relation to Qadr or divine ordinance. Again it specifically states in the covenant that all human beings have made a covenant with God and that God knew the destination of all human souls. Let me be more specific....Islam states that it is the truest religion among all the Abrahamic faiths. It also states that those that come under the knowledge of Islam but reject it will be punished per the covenant of mankind to God. Sure I can choose to convert to avoid hell, but that conversion would be insincere because I choose to convert to avoid punishment. So thus I remain an agnostic but God knew this. God knew that out of sincerity and personal comfort of my own philosophy I choose not to convert so according to al-Lauh al-Mahfuz, God has written down the destiny of all things. God knew my fate in a 2D universe beforehand, therefore, what freedom do I have if my fate has already been fixed? It is almost like a play.

The writer who designs the play knows the roles of the actors and knows the climax, the antagonists and protagonists and the end result. Can the actors in such a play, deviate from what it is written? Sure they can deviate, but for entertainment purposes the play would be chaotic and the roles would be confusing to the audience. Like the moon, it has a fixed orbit around the planet to which all life on the planet reacts from. If the moon ceased to exist, then life at night would be in disarray because the actions of nocturnal life forms (with the exception of maybe a few) would be effected.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
It appears that human beings do all the killing and other evil acts but humans didn't create anything. They are only doing the will of God.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

So we are mere puppets of the puppet master?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
The origin of free will is the will of human to feel loved. How it feels to be alive with it. It came from the first and will be remembered to the last. In meantime there is life. The choice to do things which are in its nature. In this aspect our free will is Gods will. All other actions are maybe reasoned with free will until man will realize how those actions contradict the origin of his will. Human merely determines themself.

Gods mind is in your future in a moment where you cease to existed. But eternally alive within God that you are loved thus made to be still alive. The deniers will have no free will anymore to reach the life in God.

And before you ask why God started it at all. Only in their end, humans will understand.

Thank you for your input but I was really hoping we can relate this to the subject. However I am sure God has a "plan" when it comes to the human will to do things. My subject is merely about (in general) that in Islam, God has decreed human being action. Personally I'm perfectly fine that God has made it such a way where there is no "will" rather the illusion of will, and that all actions are determined by HIM.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I suspect from an Islamic view you're going to have to accept there is no true free will. You can't do other than what Allah has foreseen what you would do.

So why go through the drama if the outcome is predetermined?

Well, all movies/plays you watch, are pre-scripted. The outcome is know. Yet you still experience throughout the revelation of the play the emotions, the thoughts. You feel the drama.

The reason I would assume is to allow you to have the experiences created by each moment of revelation to you of Allah's plan. Maybe it's Allah's way of teaching you/preparing you for what is to come. Perhaps a time of true free will where the experience you gain now during the revelation to you of Allah's plan will benefit you.

That is my point. But then this subject will eventually become a slippery slope because if I lived a decently moral life, in the sense of morality as human define good and evil, then why is my destination pain and agony if in this life I lived a decent life? Ho does a minute life time of good deeds prepare my for pain and agony? It is almost like God saying "I knew you would go to hell since you're not Muslim, and even though you lived a decent life, you were not a member of my "true" religion, I will still cast you in hell. That to me is not a fair existence nor the description of a benevolent deity.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Interesting....

However I cannot perceive Heaven but I can perceive Islamic theology in relation to Qadr or divine ordinance. Again it specifically states in the covenant that all human beings have made a covenant with God and that God knew the destination of all human souls. Let me be more specific....Islam states that it is the truest religion among all the Abrahamic faiths. It also states that those that come under the knowledge of Islam but reject it will be punished per the covenant of mankind to God. Sure I can choose to convert to avoid hell, but that conversion would be insincere because I choose to convert to avoid punishment. So thus I remain an agnostic but God knew this. God knew that out of sincerity and personal comfort of my own philosophy I choose not to convert so according to al-Lauh al-Mahfuz, God has written down the destiny of all things. God knew my fate in a 2D universe beforehand, therefore, what freedom do I have if my fate has already been fixed? It is almost like a play.

The writer who designs the play knows the roles of the actors and knows the climax, the antagonists and protagonists and the end result. Can the actors in such a play, deviate from what it is written? Sure they can deviate, but for entertainment purposes the play would be chaotic and the roles would be confusing to the audience. Like the moon, it has a fixed orbit around the planet to which all life on the planet reacts from. If the moon ceased to exist, then life at night would be in disarray because the actions of nocturnal life forms (with the exception of maybe a few) would be effected.

Where did you get that our fates are already written and fixed in al-Lauh al-Mahfuz?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Thanks for tag me :)

@Epic Beard Man
Allah did give us free will.
In Islam God knows what will happen (so you find in Quran events in past tense but it's talk about future ;) ),yes He does not force you to do bad deeds or good deeds ,that's up to you,you're hands deeds :)

Thank you for joining. Perhaps you care to shed light on the following:

(Out of respect for Muslims I say in the following):

In the Name of Allah, The Merciful, The Compassionate

Surah 7:172

"When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful"

According to Islamic theology there are five stages of Taqdeer (fate) and among them is the covenant established by the progeny of Adam and his descendants. It would appear that all humans have testified that God is our Lord, and that subsequently we will be called into account for it. It would also appear that God knows/knew our fate outside our time and space. My point is given the knowledge of this, how am I acting freely if my fate has already been fixed according to Islamic theology? It would seem that no matter what changes I've made in my life there is no absolute freedom since God knew my choices. I'm merely playing them out in existence. I therefore believe that in relation to Taqdeer, there truly is no free will in Islam. My actions prior to my existence on earth were already played out in "God's mind."

I guess the challenge would be, that if God didn't know would mean he is not omniscient.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Where did you get that our fates are already written and fixed in al-Lauh al-Mahfuz?

“No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-mahfuz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah."

Surah Al-Hadid, Verses 22, 23

According to one source it states:

"The verse also shows how fruitless it is to indulge in lengthy analysis after an event, of the various possibilities that could have materialized if an alternative course had been taken.We are being assured that it’s pointless to grieve about what we missed of fortune, because if it had been destined for us, we wouldn’t have missed it. Complaining about the situation or experience intended for us, however disagreeable, is also futile, for we couldn’t have escaped it whatever we might have done to avoid it."

Source:Quranic Reflections – Belief in Allah’s Decree [Surah Al-Hadid (22, 23)]

It would seem whatever befalls on us is already decreed and inescapable....Does not sound like free will to me.
 
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