Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[Aupmanyav]

The most influential man in the history of the world and you say "if he ever existed".

Again that is your view. IMO, Buddha is the most important man in the history of the world.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DNB]

I know all about old books. We have one which may be older than 10,000 years.
You have no evidence for what you claim.
By what you are saying, your God created wickedness. He should be the first to be punished.
Jesus made no difference to that. They remain just as wicked as before.

you're not paying attention

 

[Brian2]

Again that is your view. IMO, Buddha is the most important man in the history of the world.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I didn't say most important (even though I could have.) I said most influential.
Are you sure Buddha even existed? How do you know?
Does anyone even care enough to question the historicity of Buddha?

 

[Little Dragon]

..I'm sorry, which world and universe are you actually referring to?

This world, this oblate spheroid which doth hang in space upon which we stand. You know, planet Earth, the one infested with neotenous apes that believe in Gods. Contained within a galaxy of over 200 billion stars, itself part of a grand cosmos one of over two plus trillion galaxies, so much greater than your obnoxious primitive deity and thy parochial little holy book. Do you not see what a joke your faith is to me?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I didn't say most important (even though I could have.) I said most influential.

Buddha may not have been the most influential person in the world (I wish he was, he was closest to truth). Yes, Jesus and Muhammad have been more influential, but think of all the strife they brought to the world over centuries and continue to do so. That is why I said Buddha was the most important person in the world.

Without love the universe cannot exist

Universe has existed for 13.78 billion years. Humans have been around for just 200,000 years.

 

[Little Dragon]

Without love the universe cannot exist

Love is emotional attachment displayed by higher animals.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I feel no guilt over things I have played no part in, no. Always fascinated how Christians just love feeling guilty and filthy and covered in sin. Horrible way to live, in my view.

Speaking as a former devout Christian, I can attest that this is true. I was deeply indoctrinated in Christianity and spent the majority of my life as a devout evangelical Christian. I read and extensively studied the Bible numerous times when I was a devout Christian, including extensive study of the Bible and Christian theology while I was training to be an evangelism team leader and street preacher. I also extensively studied the Bible and Christian theology while assisting my nephew in his extended theological studies to become an ordained minister. However, I read and studied it through the rose-colored glasses of my indoctrination. It wasn't until I began to acknowledge my doubts about God and be honest with myself that I was able to read the Bible objectively, which ultimately contributed to my decision to abandon my faith in God and leave Christianity. Truth be told, I essentially studied my way out of believing the Bible, which led to further research in and out of Christianity. It ultimately led me to disavow my belief in God and my faith in Jesus. There were other circumstances that contributed to my decision to abandon Christianity, but I basically studied my way out of believing in the Bible and God.

To be honest, I'm grateful to finally be free from what I consider to be the entrapment of Christianity. It was a dreadful way to live my life, and I know many other former Christians who feel the same. I truly believe that being a Christian can be detrimental to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. It certainly was for mine, and it was for the other former Christians I know. To be honest, renouncing my Christian faith and belief in the Abrahamic God has brought me a great deal of comfort because I am no longer scared of what I believe to be the fearmongering tactics of Christianity, such as being afraid and feeling shame for allegedly sinning against God, fear of his wrath, and fear of going to hell. Being a Christian was an awful experience for me, whereas being a Wiccan and druid has been liberating and a very positive experience. It's definitely better for my mental health and emotional well-being. My life is far less stressful than it was when I was a Christian. I take it one day at a time, and I'm not gung-ho about either Wicca or Druidry.

I learned to let go of the fears I had when I was a Christian, such as fearing God, fearing sinning against God, and my fear of going to hell. And once I did that, my mental health and emotional well-being significantly improved. It was a slow process of detoxing from a lifetime of Christian indoctrination, but I finally experienced inner peace in my life, which is something I never experienced as a Christian. For the record, I was a devout evangelical Christian for thirty years and genuinely believed in God for a decade before I converted to Christianity at the age of seventeen. I was also a street preacher and an evangelical team leader for many years, while I was a Christian as well. I was deeply indoctrinated in Christianity, so it was difficult for me to be freed of it.

I felt trapped in it, so I was shackled in emotional bondage to it for the majority of my life. Christianity was a prison for me. I felt like I was imprisoned, but only my cell door was always open, and it took me a long time to realize that I could leave whenever I wanted to. I never once felt "freedom in Christ" or genuine peace in my life as a Christian, as other Christians claimed to experience in theirs. I freed myself from the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to after spending the majority of my life trapped in it. I feel no more shame for allegedly sinning against God or for allowing myself to be guilt-tripped by Christians accusing me of being a sinner, and I no longer fear any alleged future wrath or judgment from the biblical God or fear going to hell.

As a Wiccan and druid, I don't feel pressured to obey or appease any particular god, nor do I feel threatened by any god. Other than saving myself from abuse when I was a teenager, I cannot think of anything more empowering than finally understanding that I don't have to believe in the biblical God or follow Christianity or any other deity or religion in order to feel emotionally whole or make moral decisions in my life. I maintain a rational perspective on my present spiritual beliefs so as to avoid repeating these mistakes. I'm well aware of the potential emotional downfalls I could face from overly trusting in spiritual beliefs or in any god (or other deities). My beliefs are important to me, but not to the extent that I rely on them or that I feel like I can't make a moral decision without them. I don't regret my decision to renounce my belief in God and faith in Jesus, as well as leaving Christianity, but I wish that I had found the strength to do so years ago rather than holding onto the false hope and trust that I had in the biblical God. It would have been better for me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Christians are inspired by the reverence that they have for their Maker: His wisdom, holiness, justice, mercy and wrath.

I am not trying to be terribly rude here, but consider your statement from the point of view of the atheist (or perhaps the Jew, the Muslim, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, etc..)...

One of the things we understand absolutely least about your Christian God is the notion that this non-human being, having created humans only to become dismayed with how they turned out, had himself turned into a human so he could be sacrificied to himself to appease himself. To so many of us, this just doesn't speak to "wisdom, holiness, justice or mercy." Wrath, maybe, but wrath with little purpose. And to us, we recognize this truth -- the "wrath" that would commit a human being, with all his limitations, to an eternity of torture is very misplaced. It is that person, much more than the "deserving" that really need "mercy," which is otherwise misspent.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Believing that the only evidence that either a Christian or a theist has, is from a book of antiquity, is the epitome of blindness and ignorance.

Yet you offer no rebuttal - just dismissal with the wave of a hand.

God created the heavens and the earth - there are no other options to explain the miracle of the universe.

None for you, but that one is way down on my list of possibilities. All naturalistic explanations are more parsimonious that those invoking supernaturalism.

Man is wicked; God is holy and merciful - Christ is Lord.

I find your religion "wicked." Look at the ugly things you post because of it:

"Atheists are perverse and corrupt: they show no gratitude or humility towards their maker, consider themselves to be righteous ...in the most hypocritical and oblivious manner, are judgmental, blind as bats, and refuse to believe in God because the prefer to live corrupt lives with no accountability."

"Judging by your last few posts, I'm actually perceiving something much more perversely innate, than your utter oblivion and profound misconception of the Christian faith."

"Homosexuality is a vile and perverse lifestyle, and all those who practice it, and equally those who either condone or endorse it, have nothing more than a depraved and corrupt mentality."

The unbeliever also judges a tree by its fruit.

Your civil laws permit pornography, pot smoking, homosexuality, prostitution (in some states), guns (in some states).

Your intolerant religion would have governments harm such people. Go ahead and hire a gay prostitute and smoke pot if you like. There is no harm there. The harm is the religion that teaches you that such things should lead to punishment to appease an imagined, bigoted god. More fruit from the rotten tree.

What would a religionless world like? For one thing, you would be a kinder and more tolerant person.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Homosexuality is a vile and perverse lifestyle, and all those who practice it, and equally those who either condone or endorse it, have nothing more than a depraved and corrupt mentality.
The only ideology, in recent centuries, other than homosexuality, that has had such a subversive and destructive affect on society and its populace, is now the gender dysphoria movement.

My flag is either black and white or pink and blue, one stripe each. Anything other than that is an abomination by any sane person's standards, ...but then, look who I'm talking to.

What an absolutely vile and -- let me say it without regret -- unChristian thing to say. I want to say so much more, but my anger makes me aware that I would have to say things the forum does not allow.

And let me also point out that you have made a bald, flat statement about a very large group of human beings, probably, all added up, about a billion of them -- and those who "condone or endorse" (their families and friends) numbering billions more. You did not say "in my opinion." You said, in as factual a style as you were able, that those billion people are "vile, perverse, depraved and corrupt."

What I think about you, I will keep to myself. Your statements, however, are vile and totally unChristian.

(You might consider what Pope Francis himself said, "who am I to judge?")

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What an absolutely vile and -- let me say it without regret -- unChristian thing to say. I want to say so much more, but my anger makes me aware that I would have to say things the forum does not allow.

And let me also point out that you have made a bald, flat statement about a very large group of human beings, probably, all added up, about a billion of them -- and those who "condone or endorse" (their families and friends) numbering billions more. You did not say "in my opinion." You said, in as factual a style as you were able, that those billion people are "vile, perverse, depraved and corrupt."

What I think about you, I will keep to myself. Your statements, however, are vile and totally unChristian.

(You might consider what Pope Francis himself said, "who am I to judge?")

First and foremost, I'd like to express my sorrow that you witnessed such hatred and religious intolerance on RF. It should be called out for what it is. I'd like to say that you've expressed my sentiments exactly. Well said, and I commend you for calling it out. Ironically, Christians are commanded in the Bible to be ambassadors for Christ and to love their neighbor and their enemies, yet the majority of them tarnish their personal character and Christian witness by how they behave and treat others. They don't seem to care that they severely damage the public's perception of Christians and Christianity in general. It seems obvious to me that they don't care about the biblical commandments to love their neighbor, love their enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and treat others the way they want to be treated. They certainly don't inspire me to become a Christian again. I doubt that they inspire you either.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

First and foremost, I'd like to express my sorrow that you witnessed such hatred and religious intolerance on RF. It should be called out for what it is. I'd like to say that you've expressed my sentiments exactly. Well said, and I commend you for calling it out. Ironically, Christians are commanded in the Bible to be ambassadors for Christ and to love their neighbor and their enemies, yet the majority of them tarnish their personal character and Christian witness by how they behave and treat others. They don't seem to care that they severely damage the public's perception of Christians and Christianity in general. It seems obvious to me that they don't care about the biblical commandments to love their neighbor, love their enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and treat others the way they want to be treated. They certainly don't inspire me to become a Christian again. I doubt that they inspire you either.

Thank you. You might have noted that I did not report the post in question. I would prefer that staff do not delete and censure the poster, for the very reasons that you give. I want people to see and understand what it is they do when they behave in that fashion.

Hatred hurts all of us, and with nothing to be gained by it. What a waste.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Thank you. You might have noted that I did not report the post in question. I would prefer that staff do not delete and censure the poster, for the very reasons that you give. I want people to see and understand what it is they do when they behave in that fashion.

Hatred hurts all of us, and with nothing to be gained by it. What a waste.

You behave more like a Christian than the majority of Christians that I know in person or have encountered online. I'd like to say that I respect you for it.

 

[Little Dragon]

Listen to me ape-man, when a creature lives by such barbaric standards: dog-eat-dog and kill-or-be-killed, just to survive, without any other option to sustain their existence, and have absolutely no remorse or conscience related concerns, then we deem these creatures as being devoid of any moral capacity, or any spiritual cognizance and attainment, intrinsically so.

Your bias means nothing. Your so called moral capacity is an abstract concept, as subjective as your point of view. You can deem what you like, I do not care what you think. Your opinions are just whiny and bitter. Your recent replies have been most petulant.

But, there are exceptions apparently - judging by your comprehension, your ancestors are probably primates, but I will assert categorically: not mine.

Who cares what you assert? Do you have proof?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You behave more like a Christian than the majority of Christians that I know in person or have encountered online. I'd like to say that I respect you for it.

Maybe it's time to redefine the word Christian. Christianity has declared itself a moral pinnacle such that people call moral behavior the Christian way to act, and immoral behavior un-Christian, but if the humanists consistently outperform the Christians you encounter morally, perhaps they should be told that their morality isn't very humanist.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Well the Gods certainly didn't need us around. We're more of a nuisance to them really.

We stole fire and screwed ourselves in their eyes

Eh, true, Hammer, to a degree we are nuisances. We did steal fire, and why was that bad? Unadapted Industry, of which we are currently, as the years go on, leaving. We also regulate the atmosphere with the rest of life, breathing in poisonous to anaerobic bacteria oxygen, whom generate by eating poop (yes, poop!) their poop of which is food for plants. Nothing is much more caring, it forms planets by sheer necessity, as if Nothing itself was the mouth for the omnipresent breath of gravity. This forms, as a sort of great butterfly effect OF the sky and not only keeps us going but forms us and is, not only the first in the great causal chain, but the great chain of everything. We are very important, and God (nothing) and the rest of the Gods, like the Sun and Earth, are much more caring in practice than other theory would have you beleieve.

 

[Little Dragon]

We are very important, and God (nothing) and the rest of the Gods, like the Sun and Earth, are much more caring in practice than other theory would have you beleieve.

Give the Sun 500 million years or so and you will see how caring it can get, as it begins to exhaust all the helium it started with, and starts to increase in volume and luminosity as it begins to fuse other elements releasing more and more light and heat, overwhelming gravitational contraction. Eventually all the oceans on Earth will evaporate away and all life will be removed from the surface. Of course by then, humans wont likely exist, having either evolved into something else or just gone extinct, leaving no descendants.

 

[ChieftheCef]

Give the Sun 500 million years or so and you will see how caring it can get,

AH, you fool! An easy trap. No we and our environment will have escaped to star systems far from our origin by then.

as it begins to exhaust all the helium it started with, and starts to increase in volume and luminosity as it begins to fuse other elements releasing more and more light and heat, overwhelming gravitational contraction. Eventually all the oceans on Earth will evaporate away and all life will be removed from the surface. Of course by then, humans wont likely exist

an easy trap again. We will never die if we reach space.

, having either evolved into something else or just gone extinct, leaving no descendants.

 

[Little Dragon]

AH, you fool! An easy trap. No we and our environment will have escaped to star systems far from our origin by then.

Humans will never leave. Mwahahaaa.

 

[Little Dragon]

We will never die if we reach space.

Yeah I know.