Theists, How do you know there is no being more powerful than God?

[Glaurung]

Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.

I don't see how anyone could think this kind of sophistry as somehow profound. As a Christian I may be wrong about what God has revealed to man, but my concept of God as the non-contingent source of all being renders questions such as yours meaningless. You may as well ask me how I can reject the possibility of a sphere even more spherical than a perfect sphere.

 

[McBell]

Just curious, @Hubert Farnsworth, where have you heard it proclaimed that God is the most powerful being in existence?

Post 2 in this very thread is the most recent for me...

 

[Skwim]

This isn't a problem when you understand that the God of monotheism is a qualitatively different concept than the entities called gods in polytheism. What the Greeks called gods do not exist according to monotheism.

Of course not. By necessity monotheism, and Christianity in particular, have to deny their existence.

.

 

[Thanda]

Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.

It wouldn't matter. Jesus already said that his Father (another being) is greater than he is John 14:28.

But then he makes an important point: I and the Father are one (not one person, but united in purpose and character).

So regardless or how many Gods there may be, it wouldn't change anything in our lives so long as they are all united in their purpose and the same in their character.

 

[McBell]

Post 2 in this very thread is the most recent for me...

Now it is post 21

​

 

[SalixIncendium]

Now it is post 21

​

Post 2 in this very thread is the most recent for me...

Okay, fair enough. But know that a notion of a "powerful God" is not true to all theists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just curious, @Hubert Farnsworth, where have you heard it proclaimed that God is the most powerful being in existence?

AFAICT - at least in this thread - the suggestion that God is the most powerful being in existence came from @Earthtank in his reply to the OP. @Hubert Farnsworth only talked about that idea after a couple of theists brought it up in objection to his assumptions in the OP.

 

[SalixIncendium]

AFAICT - at least in this thread - the suggestion that God is the most powerful being in existence came from @Earthtank in his reply to the OP. @Hubert Farnsworth only talked about that idea after a couple of theists brought it up in objection to his assumptions in the OP.

Am I missing something? The OP suggest theists view God as the most powerful being in existence and asks how they know that there's not a more powerful being that tricked theists into this notion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Am I missing something?

One of us is.

The OP suggest theists view God as the most powerful being in existence and asks how they know that there's not a more powerful being that tricked theists into this notion.

I don't see a lot of what you're seeing in the OP.

The OP asked about the possibility that there's a being more powerful than God. It not only doesn't define "God" as "the most powerful being in existence," but actually hypothesizes another being (also a god) that's greater than God.

Edit: IOW, the OP is based on a scenario where God is not the most powerful being in existence.

It was in post #2 that @Earthtank - a theist, apparently - objected to the hypothetical scenario in the OP on the grounds that it's contradictory. He explained that he - @Earthtank , not @Hubert Farnsworth - considers "God" to be "the most powerful being in existence" (or words to that effect).

 

[Earthtank]

It was in post #2 that @Earthtank - a theist,

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By my understanding, deists (believers in a non-interventionist creator-god) are a subset of theists (believers in gods in general)... but this is all beside the point: that it wasn't the atheist who started the thread who introduced the idea that God is, by definition, the most powerful being in existence.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

To me, that's sorta like asking me: "How would you know Einstein was the most muscular scientist?" And I'd pause...and wonder if you meant it as a metaphor. And I'd probably say, "He had a subtle, brilliant mind." and not try to convince you of anything, but just be satisfied with saying that accurate thing. So, in similar fashion: the Christ is first the great teacher, who you could learn from if you choose, if you sought to learn the most valuable things. I was trying to learn from very many of the great thinkers/teachers, quite a long list, with some names I really gained from including Lao Tzu, Emerson, Jung, Campbell, and there are many more, but I'm not trying to impress, but instead the point is that having read very many great thinkers/teachers from around the world, I can accurately say Jesus is worth anyone's time, if the person is willing or wanting to learn the best things. So, don't think of Einstein as a weight lifter, but as a brilliant scientist, and I wouldn't try to ask about Christ as how-powerful, but think of him in terms of what he has said for us to hear, the subtle deep things he said that made the accounts, the 4 accounts of his words and deeds.

Jesus' teachings may well be very valuable, but that's irrelevant to the question. Do you believe that the Christian god is the most powerful being in existence or not? If you don't believe that, then the questions don't apply to you. But most Christians believe this, so I would assume you do. If you do, how do you know Jesus/Yahweh are not being controlled by higher powers?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Fair enough, but does "most high" automatically mean "most powerful?"

Couldn't it mean "most revered?"

Perhaps, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of Christians believe that the Christian god is not being controlled by a more powerful being, and hence that the Christian god is the most powerful being in existence. Maybe I understood basic Christian theology wrong throughout my youth, and perhaps the idea that Yahweh/Jesus are simply puppets on a string of a more powerful, yet unknown god is a common belief in Christianity. But, I have a fair amount of experience with Christian theology, and I would *highly* doubt that a significant percentage of Christians believe this.

 

[halbhh]

Jesus' teachings may well be very valuable, but that's irrelevant to the question. Do you believe that the Christian god is the most powerful being in existence or not? If you don't believe that, then the questions don't apply to you. But most Christians believe this, so I would assume you do. If you do, how do you know Jesus/Yahweh are not being controlled by higher powers?

I was trying to say earlier in another post, what people mean by the word "God" is the one true God or ultimate (not a lesser one that is), meaning not a created being that a greater being made or is above, but instead the 'Almighty'.

The ultimate. The one that is the ultimate.

That's the sense of the word "God" -- that's what people are usually trying to refer to, that sense.

Usually what is meant (for many of us) when we say "God". I believe in Him.

As I tried to point out previous, we know from scripture we cannot know all about Him, only some revealed things only.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I was trying to say earlier in another post, what people mean by the word "God" is the one true God or ultimate (not a lesser one that is), meaning not a created being that a greater being made or is above, but instead the 'Almighty'.

The ultimate. The one that is the ultimate.

That's the sense of the word "God" -- that's what people are usually trying to refer to, that sense.

Usually what is meant (for many of us) when we say "God". I believe in Him.

As I tried to point out previous, we know from scripture we cannot know all about Him, only some revealed things only.

Right, and my question is, how do you know that the being described by the Christian bible as "God" *is* in fact the most powerful being in existence? You seem to be playing a semantics game to avoid the question in which you define "God" as being the most powerful being in existence. But, by that definition, God is guaranteed to exist, since there must be a most powerful being in the universe. That is why this definition of God is not useful. My specific question is: How do you prove that the deity described in the Bible is the most powerful being in existence?

 

[Vee]

How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god?

As a Christian, that would go against the concept of God - "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

 

[Thief]

Suppose for the sake of argument that the god of classical theism (Jesus/Allah/Yahweh, etc.) exists and did in fact create the universe and perform supernatural feats. How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god? Perhaps the more powerful god decided to make the god of classical theism believe that it is the most powerful being in existence, when in fact, it is not. Perhaps Jesus' death and resurrection did occur, but they were part of a plan put into place by a greater god, who will one day take Jesus/Yahweh/Allah by surprise when he/she/it (the more powerful god) asserts her/his/its authority over the universe. Perhaps the Bible/Qur'an were inspired by your god, but only because the more powerful god allowed them to be inspired in order to trick humans into thinking that the god of classical theism is the most powerful being in existence.

The point of this thought experiment is to show that you cannot (at least, as far as I can determine) prove your god is the most powerful being in existence. Even if he revealed himself to you in a genuinely powerful experience, you have no way of knowing that he is not simply a tool used by a more powerful god.

in a manner of speaking......in the scheme of superlatives
bigger faster stronger most intelligent and greatly experienced

cannot be pushed aside.....too big
cannot be circumvented....too fast
cannot be subdued......too strong
cannot be tricked or cheated......

coupled with the power of creation......trump card

you can't win

God.....the Almighty
self explanatory

 

[Rational Agnostic]

As a Christian, that would go against the concept of God - "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

Another dodge. No surprise really...

 

[halbhh]

Right, and my question is, how do you know that the being described by the Christian bible as "God" *is* in fact the most powerful being in existence? You seem to be playing a semantics game to avoid the question in which you define "God" as being the most powerful being in existence. But, by that definition, God is guaranteed to exist, since there must be a most powerful being in the universe. That is why this definition of God is not useful. My specific question is: How do you prove that the deity described in the Bible is the most powerful being in existence?

We recognize none of us would ever know better, superior, about God than someone who knows God unusually well, the teacher Jesus.

He even told us this:

Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.


We just aren't going to be able to have a better understanding than Jesus, of course.

That's only realism. If someone imagined they know more of God than the Christ, it's a delusion.

 

[syo]

How do you know that this god is not just a creation or tool being used by another more powerful god?

In Orthodox Christianity, the Universe has one God, Jesus/the Son. The Son is an aspect of a Greater God, the Father. The Father sent the Son, gave birth to the Son, created the world through the Son. So, the Father is the most powerful God and He is responsible for the Son/Jesus.