1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,569
    Ratings:
    +2,009
    Have you ever noticed that this translation makes a future tense out of a perfect tense while in other places like Genesis 16:11 it has made it perfect tense as in "have conceived" and not "Will conceive"?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,569
    Ratings:
    +2,009
    I would like to read a commentary with this view if you could furnish one. I am not disagreeing of course because its valid, so please give me a name of a commentary that maybe i could purchase that has this particular view.
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,642
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Here's something online:

    hyperlink >>> chabad.org - Sheep

    However, I think I can find more... it's the part about Jacob and the lambs that you're curious about?
     
    #63 dybmh, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,569
    Ratings:
    +2,009
    Yes. Because i read an Isaiah targum which directly speaks about the future messiah and the advent of a deep peaceful time. I am not a Jew bro so my access to different perspectives is low. Thus i would love to read other views. I remember hearing a guy saying something in your line but that was too long ago and i really cant recall.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,642
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes, no problem...

    It looks like the idea that Jacob was cultivating peaceful observance towards G-d in Genesis 30 is coming from Midrash Rabbah Shir HaShirim. I'm still looking though...

    I'm specifically looking for something which says that Jacob's flock symbolized the beginning of the Jewish nation.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7,569
    Ratings:
    +2,009
    Thats awesome. Thanks. But dont worry bro. Only if you randomly find something, otherwise its fine. Thank you so much. really appreciate it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,705
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I agree and that is made clear from the text itself (John 20:31). My main point is that Jesus did not fulfil all the prophecies and some Christians have tried to make Jesus fit prophecy that isn’t relevant to Jesus or the Revelation He brought. One thing that Jesus hasn’t brought is world peace. However in having His Gospel taught to all nations He has laid the foundation for world peace to come about if that’s what humanity wants.
     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,069
    Ratings:
    +2,963
    Religion:
    undecided
    Good question... and, as I understand it, the gospel writers used the Septuagint, which gave them a more favorable translation of Isaiah 7:14. But still, even I can see that it doesn't fit the context.

    Not so "clearly".

    From the Complete Jewish Bible:
    5Since Aram planned harm to you, Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, saying: 6'Let us go up against Judah and provoke it, and annex it to us; and let us crown a king in its midst, one who is good for us,' 7So said the Lord God, 'Neither shall it succeed, nor shall it come to pass... 14Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. 15Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good. 16For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."

    Matthew 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

    I don't think a person has to be a "cynic" to see something weird is going on here. The context is about a boy in the time of Isaiah and King Ahaz. Besides, Baha'is themselves show how Jesus did not fulfill many of the prophecies Christians say he did. But where does that leave us if Jesus didn't fulfill at least some of the prophecies? And, even if we think he fulfilled some of them, how can we trust the gospel writers if they manipulated verses to create prophecies? If they did, then aren't they false prophets for making claims about Jesus that weren't true?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,705
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I'm not aware of any Baha'i writings the refer specifically to Isaiah 7:14. Prophecies are often vague and somewhat cryptic. Prophecies need not necessarily refer to one just event. So while a verse may have a clear historic association as it does here, it can also have an allegorical meaning or reference to a future event. So while the Jews have a good point with this verse, so too do the Christians IMHO. That is my provisional opinion that I'm happy to reconsider if presented with new and compelling evidence to the contrary. Regardless, whether or not Christ meets various criteria as seen by either Christians, Jews or Baha'is is not the main reason I would reject or accept Christ.

    Two thousand years on we the Gospel accounts and the Apostolic letters have stood the test of time, the Church as been blessed and the transforming power of the Revelation of Jesus has proven itself to me personally and countless people I have come across throughout life. So on a personal level it is clear.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,705
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I hadn't thought about it exactly like that but what you say makes sense.
     
  11. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,942
    Ratings:
    +2,220
    Religion:
    Catholic
    And that answers the question as to what changed with Jesus.
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,642
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Judaism
    PM sent... :)
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,069
    Ratings:
    +2,963
    Religion:
    undecided
    The early Roman Church don't sound all that great for bringing the gospel and laying a foundation for peace. Part of the "gospel" was Jesus was part of a trinity and that if you don't convert you will burn in hell. In fact, if people didn't convert they were sometimes tortured and killed. And, Baha'is have said that by 622AD, Christianity had lost its way so bad that God needed to send a new messenger, Muhammad, to set things straight.

    But, back to the wolves and lambs, what is the Baha'i interpretation of this last part about a "child" leading them?
     
  14. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    31,023
    Ratings:
    +12,369
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    One question. Where are they now?
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,942
    Ratings:
    +2,220
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Who?
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,431
    Ratings:
    +5,134
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The Quran corrected crucial concepts that would make it hard for people to accept the One God at the end of ages.

    Materially Christianity was also in dark times, it took the new heaven and new earth of Muhammad's Revelation to enable Christianity to gain a new spark of light.

    Migration period | European history

    It was Christain Scholar's travelling and learning from Muslims that brought new thoughts.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,982
    Ratings:
    +8,705
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    When the Emperor Constantine became a Christian he found the bishops arguing about doctrinal matters. That was resolved through a series of Councils. Though I do not necessarily agree with the outcome of those Councils, the key issue at that time was to build unity and having an agreed on Creed (The Nicene) was better than not agreeig on anything at all and continuing to incessantly quibble. There was the very real possibility of schism as a result of what Arius was presenting. The Creed that was supported and the Arian beliefs that were rejected carried the mandate of the Emperor with severe consequences (death) for anyone who had copies of Arius's work in their possession. Ironically there were future Emperors who were supporters of Arius so it was all somewhat of a mess. The Roman Empire fragmented into East (Byzantium) and West. The Western Roman Empire had completely collapsed by 476 AD. The West was eventually brought together through the Holy Roman Empire perhaps initially through the coronation of Charlemange in 800 AD.

    Charlemagne - Wikipedia

    Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia

    The Bzyantium Empire of Eastern Roman Empire survived the fragmentation of the Western Empire until its fall to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

    It would be interesting to have a thorough analysis of the state of Christianity during the seventh to eighth centuries as Islam rapidly emerged as a dominant force. We've already had some discussion about this era of history in considering the book of Revelation. Its that last book of the Christian Bible that according to the Baha'is

    It looks Messianic and perhaps relates to Isaiah 9:6-7.
     
  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,612
    Ratings:
    +3,687
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Another passage which seems to indicate to me that this language is symbolical is

    John 1 29-30

    The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’

    Note that in this passage Jesus is referred to as both a Lamb and a Man. So from the scriptures themselves Lamb = Man. I believe this is quite clear.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  19. WonderingWorrier

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    76
    Ratings:
    +35
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I think the wolf has always been with the lamb. And the lion has always been with the ox.
    It is the lion and the ox that eat straw with the bear. They are not with the wolf and the lamb.
    The wolf and the lamb is with the horse. They eat the stubble.
    That is the law.
     
  20. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    11,253
    Ratings:
    +2,134
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    Reminiscent of Plato's allegory of the chariot
     
Loading...