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Featured The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Leviticus and Isaiah are very different books and arguably as different as Daniel and Isaiah are different.

    Tell me, do you think any of Isaiah is symbolic or its all literal?

    Clearly Jewish thinkers consider many verses Messianic and I would have thought to make that work some verses could not be taken literally. For example the reference to the stars, moon and sun in Isaiah 13:10:

    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    So we are considering a condition where carnivores becomes vegetarian and predator and they prey coexist in peace. Its hard to imagine but I suppose God can do anything. The question then becomes why he would want to affect such a change in the animal kingdom. But I completely accept your views.

    I agree it would make sense to consider the state of the kingdoms as they existed during this period of Isaiah’s prophecy. There could also be principles that apply much more generally of course.

    I think many Christians view the verses of Isaiah 11:6-8 literally as you do. Some of course understand them symbolically.

    Thanks anyway for providing a Jewish perspective. Many Jews here are reluctant to speak too much about their faith. I wish more would.
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    But Joseph, Jesus' legal father, was of Davidic line though different sons, the difference in the genealogies between Mt and Luke,
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    A 'miraculous transformation' that would seem to be fulfill the 'rule of God'?
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Well... :D Neither of us were talking about the entire books... until now... o_O ...

    In Post#10 you mentioned Daniel 7 as possibly comparable to Isaiah 11? Do you think they are comparable? I don't. See post #20.

    Regarding Leviticus, in Post #30 I propose that Isaiah 11 is referencing Leviticus 26, not the entire book.

    It's a big book... We were talking about Isaiah 11:6. And I have a theory that Isaiah was referencing Leviticus 26:6. It's a "shout out" to Moses. It's "standing on the shoulders of giants".

    For Isaiah 13:10, I have a similar theory. Compare it to Leviticus 26:19 ( "your heavens" will be "like iron" ). But it's a weaker example. Again, we were talking about a different verse. 13:10 can be prophecy, but it could still be intended to be understood literally as stars and constellations becoming dark.

    So... literal and messianic are not mutually exclusive. This is because Isaiah was not the first in Tanach to have a prophesy about the messianic era. If the verses match up, like Isaiah 11:6 matches Leviticus 26:6, then, it is most likely that Isaiah was "standing on the shoulders of giants" and virtually quoting Moses. Please note: This is what Jewish scholars do, it's part of the culture. Whenever possible, a speech/sermon/conversation is linked back to "Torah" aka "The Five Books of Moses". So... it fits. It's literal **and** messianic. I have been developing this idea consistently ( post#20, post#23, post#30 ). Literal and messianic, both.

    This is based on the english word "dwell" that is commonly used as the translation for the 1st word in 11:6.

    But it's not an english word, and "dwell" in English implies permanence. But the Hebrew word is "Gar". A "Gar" is a stranger, a sojourner, a temporary resident. The famous quote " Stranger in a Strange Land".. Exodus 2:22... the child's name was "Gairshom" based on the meaning of the word Gar. So this idea of the animals becoming vegetarian is not really what is said in the verse looking at the Hebrew. I don't think this should be even considered. What Isaiah 11:6 is really saying is... the wolf will have its needs met so that it can "sojourn" among the lamb without attacking it. Take that and then re-read Leviticus 26:6 ( the evil beasts will cease ).

    Here is Isaiah 11:6, note the translation to "dwell". That's not exactly accurate, IMO.

    upload_2020-1-14_7-32-9.png

    Here's the dictionary entry for Gar, note the impermanence. It should be "temporarily dwell" not "dwell" in Isaiah 11:6.

    upload_2020-1-14_7-35-16.png

    Also, if you keep going to verse 11:9, the location for this prophecy is limited in its location. It says that it will happen: "B'chal-Har Kad'shi" (In all my holy mountain). That doesn't describe the animals becoming miraculously vegetarian. That's not what I'm considering, it's literally not what the words mean.

    upload_2020-1-14_7-40-48.png

    Agreed.
    You're welcome.
    .
    ( screenshots taken from sefaria.org )
     
    #44 dybmh, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Is anyone supposed to take it seriously that lions are going to
    eat straw?

    These fish do not look well suited eating carrots,and
    where they live has zero light, zero vegetation.

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...hUKEwjAxKTatIPnAhUEQq0KHTahALQQ4dUDCAc&uact=5
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    The Targum speaks of course of the Messiahs time where peace will be established and it seems like these are symbolic statements.

    I am also interested if the Bahai's and Christians have a different view or tafsir on this.
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    More words that have to be sorted out here, whether they are figurative or literal... Zion and Jerusalem. In this context should they be the literal location of where the law will go forth? I would imagine that Jews would not even question that Zion and Jerusalem are where these things will happen. Same with Christians. But Baha'is need this to be the symbolic location, and need the real location of God's law to be going out of Haifa, or Mt. Carmel.

    More problematic words... Why does Jesus have to be literally "virgin" born? Why does the Hebrew word have to be literally translated as "virgin"? Why does Isaiah 7:14 have to be a Messianic prophecy? And, as I usually like to mention, it don't fit the context of the rest of the story in Isaiah 7. So whether literal or figurative, Isaiah 7:14 doesn't fit Jesus anyway.

    So lots of little related pieces to this puzzle. Wolves not eating lambs? Is it about people or real animals? Was Jesus born of a virgin? If that is not really a prophecy, then is Jesus really the Messiah? Is the law going to go out of Zion and Jerusalem, or is that only a symbolic location? And depending on the beliefs of the one who's answering it will probably be a mix of some things literal and some things symbolic, or all of them symbolic, or all of them literal. And why should God's Word be this complicated?
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @CG Didymus, Here's my questions. Maybe one of the Baha'i can answer?
    Was Baha’u’llah looking at the Hebrew in the Torah? Did Baha’u’llah read and understand Hebrew? It seems like Baha’u’llah is referring to the Christian English translation, because, feeding together is not mentioned at all in the Hebrew. All that's said really is that they won't eat each other on the Temple Mount.
     
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  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Its an important question regarding formal approaches to exegesis of sacred writings. I had to look up Tafsīr as its not a word I’m acquainted with.

    Tafsir - Wikipedia

    The Baha’i approach in the first instance is clear. We consider the writings of Bahá’u’lláh and the Bab as being the Word of God. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi are both authorised interpreters and derive that authority through the pen of Bahá’u’lláh Himself. The Baha’i governing body has no such authority when it comes to interpretation but has authority through Abdu’l-Bahá to elucidate on the Writings and resolve difficult problems where differences have arisen. In the first instance that would involve a thorough analysis of any relevant verses from the writings including Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi. If it is not clear the House of Justice will say so. Its up to Baha’i scholars and the like to research and provide analysis if they feel so inspired. Some of the principles and learnings of Tafsīr approaches may be helpful. However while Baha’i learning and scholarship is accorded respect and considered praiseworthy it has no authority.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    To be clear, most Christians and Baha’is believe Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary. This is a matter of faith based on our respective sacred writings. Christians and Baha’is believe Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah whose advent was clearly prophesied in Hebrew Scriptures. However Jesus did not clearly fulfil all prophecy. So will Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary, He was not a direct descendant of David through the male lineage. The Christians can’t have it both ways. So while it is claimed He did fulfil the prophecy through His legal father Joseph, the Jews have a reasonable case in discounting this particular claim IMHO. There are of course other Hebrew verses that are a good fit for Jesus. So while Baha’is may agree with the Jews on this particular aspect of interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures we wouldn’t deny Jesus was the Son of God.
     
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  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitab-i-Iqan wrote to a Muslim to explain the purpose of the Bab’s Mission and the underlying unity of all religions.

    Báb - Wikipedia

    He references the Quran, New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures.

    Baha’is consider this work as Revelation from God in a similar manner as to how the Torah represents HaShem’s Revelation. So it wouldn’t make sense to ask whether or not God was reading an approved Hebrew version or a Christian version.
     
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  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    So,my question is: who was Baha’u’llah talking about? Who interprets Isaiah 11:6 as the wolf "feeding" with the lamb?
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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  14. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Those are omnivores.
     
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  15. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Tafsir is interpretation. Jews and Muslims use this word. I used it out of habit. So nevermind the word.

    Bottomline is, the Jews interpret Isaiah 11:6-8 to represent the advent of the Messiah and what kind of depth peace will be established upon his coming. So as i said, its symbolic. This is according to the Jewish Targum. Read the Targum.
     
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  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    The word Zion can refer to either Jerusalem or to the Land of Israel itself. The word is first found in 2 Samuel 5:7. It originally referred to a specific hill in Jerusalem (Mount Zion), located to the south of Mount Moriah (the Temple Mount). Mount Zion held a Jebusite fortress of the same name that was conquered by David and was re-named the City of David. That specific hill ("mount") is one of the many squat hills that form Jerusalem, which also includes Mount Moriah (the Temple Mount), the Mount of Olives, etc. Over many centuries, until as recently as the Ottoman era, the city walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt many times in new locations, so that the particular hill known as Mount Zion is no longer inside the city wall, but its location is now just outside the portion of the Old City wall forming the southern boundary of the Jewish Quarter of the current Old City. Most of the original City of David itself is thus also outside the current city wall.

    The term Zion came to designate the area of Davidic Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and was used as well as synecdoche for the entire city of Jerusalem; and later, when Solomon's Temple was built on the adjacent Mount Moriah (which, as a result, came to be known as the Temple Mount) the meanings of the term Tzion were further extended by synecdoche to the additional meanings of the Temple itself, the hill upon which the Temple stood, the entire city of Jerusalem, the entire biblical Land of Israel, and "the World to Come", the Jewish understanding of the afterlife.

    In Kabbalah, the more esoteric reference is made to Zion being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the Holy of Holies of the First, Second and Third Temple.


    Adapted from:
    Zion - Wikipedia

    So Zion can have many associations and meanings. It can be used to designate a spiritual point and symbolic rather than as purely a location.

    Jerusalem has enormous spiritual significance in the Tanakh, not just in regards to it being a physical location but where the Temple is located. It is thus the meeting place between man and God. That is why the Holy City can symbolise the Revelation of God and specifically the Most Holy Book itself.

    So the New Jerusalem mentioned in the New Testament no longer needs to be the Old Jerusalem or a city at all. Likewise Jesus becomes the New Temple replacing the Second Temple that was destroyed along with Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans.

    Jesus being born to the Virgin Mary is mentioned explicitly in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. We can neither prove or disprove it. Jesus being born to a Virgin has nothing to do with whether He fulfilled Isaiah 7:14 though cynics will argue the text was written with this verse from Isaiah in mind.

    That being said, Isaiah 7:14 is clear whether:

    "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel," (Isaiah 7:14).

    or

    "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel," (Isaiah 7:14).


    If we want to believe carnivores will miraculously become vegetarians for no good reason other than Isaiah said so, then I agree it becomes complicated, especially for the one who feels his faith requires such a dramatic departure from logic and a much simpler symbolic meaning.
     
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  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Zion is a symbolic place of David (2 Samuel 5:7); which is used about David's Flock in phrases like 'Daughter of Zion' in many places - Zion is the place of David, and his people.

    When we look at the Hebrew of Flock and Zion (ציון ▬ צאן), we can see the interconnection of the words, as it is only different vowels; thus a slightly different expression of the same meanings.

    Symbolically Zion are the people of David's Flock, those who shall stample down together as the Children of God united; when David their Messiah unites the Tribes (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, Revelation 5:5, etc.).

    The person to come symbolically is the unifier of religion, and thus prophesied by Baha'u'llah as the one to come to aid his cause, with the name of the city 'Zion':

    "How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name, the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

    In Hebrew we have a few verses that say 'Zion' becomes the name of Our Elohim (Divine Manifestation), and King.

    Psalms 146:10 The Lord of Creation will reign forever; your Divine Being Zion, to all generations. Praise the Lord!

    Psalms 147:12 Praise the Lord of Creation Jerusalem! Praise your Divine Being Zion!

    Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him who brings 'good news', who publishes peace, who brings good news, who proclaims salvation, who says to Zion "King" our Divine Being!”

    This same sentence in Isaiah 52:7 is repeated in the 2nd coming in the Quran 43:60-77, at the same timeline around Judgement Day; where those who've accepted the "King" as Messiah are here in the Time to Come.

    43:77 And they will call, "O Malik, let your Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Indeed, you will remain."

    In Hebrew Malik would be King, and Divine Messenger like in Isaiah 52:7; yet without vowels the Arabs have created a new angel to come at the end of time.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #57 wizanda, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  18. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the NT sacred writers was to justify, through their Scripture, who they believed Jesus to be. Matthew and Luke present a constructed genealogy for that purpose. Hebrews presents further justification for Jesus' royal priesthood, in the 'manner of Melchizedek'. I'm not suggesting that there is no case for discounting the Davidic lineage, but to remember that the Gospels are faith testomonies of who they believed Jesus to be.
     
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  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    The purpose wasn't to accurately record the events as they occurred?
     
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  20. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    No. The purpose was not a chronological or biographical history. That does not mean that nothing is historical or that Jesus did not do or say what is reported, but used here and there according to the author's intent. We cannot discount the theology and the christology of the sacred writers who wrote decades later with post resurrection faith.
     
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