1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    In this thread I’d like to explore the possible meanings of the verses expressed by the Hebrew Prophet Isaiah 11:6-8 as recorded in the Tanakh.

    Isaiah was the 8th-century BC Israelite prophetafter whom the Book of Isaiah is named.

    Within the text of the Book of Isaiah, Isaiah himself is referred to as "the prophet", but the exact relationship between the Book of Isaiah and any such historical Isaiah is complicated. The traditional view is that all 66 chapters of the book of Isaiah were written by one man, Isaiah, possibly in two periods between 740 BC and c. 686 BC, separated by approximately 15 years, and includes dramatic prophetic declarations of Cyrus the Great in the Bible, acting to restore the nation of Israel from Babylonian captivity. Another widely held view is that parts of the first half of the book (chapters 1–39) originated with the historical prophet, interspersed with prose commentaries written in the time of King Josiah a hundred years later, and that the remainder of the book dates from immediately before and immediately after the end of the exile in Babylon, almost two centuries after the time of the historical prophet.


    Isaiah - Wikipedia


    The verses in question appear to be problematic if taken literally as we have animals at peace with each other that would be innately opposed and even having a predator-prey relationship. So the verses most likely have some other meanings. What could they mean? I’m wondering if Jews, Christians and Baha’is would understand the verses differently and if so, how?

    Here are the verses as recorded in the King James Version.

    The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.



     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,684
    Ratings:
    +2,051
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Pictures the idyllic harmony of paradise in a dramatic symbol of universal peace and justice under the rule of the new Davidic king. The peace and harmony even among carnivores and their natural prey in this description suggest a paradisiac aspect of the reign of the new king.
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,968
    Religion:
    Øneness
    We do not start any study by defining we eisegete the answers; the best is to look for matching key wording in the same text for additional meaning behind it.

    Isaiah 65:25 also has the wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. Dust will be the serpent’s food. They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,” says Yahweh.

    Yet contextually the timeline in Isaiah 65:17 is after there is a new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be remembered, nor come into mind...

    In other words we're having a whole new reality after Judgement Day, as prophesied before Isaiah 11, in Isaiah 10:16-19 is the Fire coming to cleanse reality in Isaiah 13:10 from Betelgeuse in Orion.

    Take into account prophetically Betelgeuse means the House of God is coming here soon; after this happens Isaiah 30:26 says the light of our sun will then be 7 times brighter, and the light of our moon like the sun - thus creatures of the night change.

    When reality changes, the demonic forces that made predatory animals are to be removed; as recorded in Isaiah 34 lake of Fire, and in Isaiah 35:7-9 no Ravenous Animal shall be in the Age to Come.

    If we read the Zoroastrian texts as well, these state the purpose of Frashokereti is to remove the Ravenous Beings; Biblically this should all be examined contextually, as Song of Solomon 8:6 states "Flame of the Lord" which is a Zoroastrian specific terminology, and Isaiah prophesied Cyrus who was a Zoroastrian King, who then helped build the 2nd temple.

    In Hindu text the same, that we are in Kali Yuga, where it is to catch out the Raktabīja (blood thirsty demons), and when the Fire comes in the Kalki Purana, it removes Kali Yuga personified.

    In other words according to texts globally the Ravenous Beings are removed in a Day, at the Messiah's coming (Isaiah 30:33).
    All these three miss contexts about Yeshua being King David (Psalms 89:19-21 = Isaiah 52:13-14 - Marred = Anointed), and thus are awaiting their reward, where they've been cut off by Moses's Curse (Deuteronomy 28, Zechariah 11).

    Thus we are on the verge of mankind's annihilation in the Middle East as the Bible prophesied, with each of them three trying to claim they're chosen, and set apart ("Pharisaic") thus inevitably they have similar takes on the prophecy; yet ultimately their division has led to the world's demise.

    All three of them religious ideas don't understand contextually Isaiah 53:1, 'Rumour' is linked 'Rumour upon Rumour' in Isaiah 28:9-19, making a Bed of Adultery (Isaiah 28:20-21, Revelation 2:22).

    Before the fulfilment of Deuteronomy 30:1-10 happens, which is the Messianic Age; Deuteronomy 29:19-28 Fire and Brimstone from the sky happens.

    Which according to Ezekiel, etc, is to stop the Middle Eastern World War 3; where the Zionist with Baha'u'llah's permission, and with Christian funding, have moved back to Israel, fulfilling Ezekiel 38:8-12.

    This in turn causes the Source to send Fire to remove their weapons in a day (Ezekiel 38:18-23 - Ezekiel 39:1-13), and then after there will be a New Age; where there is a Covenant of world peace without the ravenous souls (Ezekiel 34:25).

    These three religious ideas, all feel they understand it correctly; yet are so much seeking reward, they have no clue what 'Mahêr shâlâl Châsh baz' means (Isaiah 8:1-2, Zechariah 5) - thus have been set up in a Snare of their own making, for not reading context according to the contexts globally (Isaiah 29:9-14).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #3 wizanda, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,525
    Ratings:
    +4,782
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I think it describes the "Messianic Era". Searching the Internet, it seems the best explanation comes from the Chabad website:

    What Will Happen When Moshiach Comes?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    23,498
    Ratings:
    +9,848
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    That will require a change in physiology of carnivores. Sure, Allah can do it. He left the appendix in humans.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,968
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Malachi 4:4-6 happened where Elijah came as John the Baptist, before the Curse was placed, which was because of the death of Yeshua for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:1-14).

    The foolish shepherds (Rabbinic Judaism - Zechariah 11:15-17) are over the flock until the coming of the Messiah (Ezekiel 34); they've been set backwards to most logical exegesis as they don't listen to the prophets (Ezekiel 20:25, Deuteronomy 31:24-29).

    We can show in Ezekiel 38:8-12 that Gog coming against Israel, are the Zionist with Christendom (Magog); who according to Revelation 3:9-12 are fake Jews, as they are Pharisaic who've rejected Yehoshua (King David), and the Salvation of God (H3444 - Yeshua).

    Those who have not failed the Snare (Isaiah 8:11-22, Isaiah 28:9-21) and understand the Testimony of Yehoshua, will be here after the Fire, and then the Tribes are gathered from every nation.

    We can show the Fire must come first based on Moses's timeline of the Curse (Deuteronomy 28), Fire and Brimstone (Deuteronomy 29:19-28), and then Messianic gathering (Deuteronomy 30:1-10).

    The Resurrection of the Dead is specifically stated also at the time of the Fire, and if we study religious eschatology globally they all say this.

    The additional Mitzvot are already on this site, the 13 Commandments as Jacob's Ladder, and the Forms of Yoga with the Chakras.

    This forum has made a great test in showing why they don't actually want the Messiah; Zionism wants somebody who fits their own made up religion from Babylon.

    Which is why Source plans on just deleting everyone who doesn't already accept the Marvellous Work (Zechariah 8:6-8), by the quantum Fire soon according to Moses (Deuteronomy 32:15-22).

    The 3rd temple isn't built by human hands, it is a place the Source of reality will reside here on earth (Exodus 15:17-18); so Heaven reigns on earth, only the enlightened are welcome (Daniel 12:3, Daniel 12:10).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,525
    Ratings:
    +4,782
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Thanks for this; I'll review it and ask questions if I have any.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    3,509
    Ratings:
    +846
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    Verses imply change of consciousness when nobody have will to harm others. it is written metaphorically.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,525
    Ratings:
    +4,782
    Religion:
    Judaism
    @adrian009 ,

    Perhaps take a look at Leviticus 26:6?

    Maybe Isaiah was referring to this? The entire chapter ( Leviticus 26 ) seems to be relevant, but, specifically the part about the "beasts" in verse 6 and verse 22.
     
    #9 dybmh, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    That is very much the vision of this messianic vision. The main question is whether we take these verses literally and the animals represent different empires, nations, kingdoms, races or even religions. For example, animals (albiet beasts) are clearly used to represent Empires in the book of Daniel 7.
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You are correct IMHO to refer to a similar verse in Isaiah and to view the verse as having Messianic connotations.

    I agree the new age is one that is a different reality but as the Christian, Muslim and Jewish eras all differed from each other. I don't agree there will be the kinds of literal apocalyptic events you allude to. I don't believe any animals need to change their inherent nature, for example carnavores being transformed into herbevores, or carnivores being annihilated just because they are carnivores.

    So you have a very literal interpretation of such verses.

    Its a hard sell proclaiming yourself as today's Messiah and the last hope for humanity. All the best with that.
     
  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,968
    Religion:
    Øneness
    I'm not here as a savoir, it is the End of Time soon... I'm here to say "Good Bye" to those who don't get it.
    I used to not understand this, until I read the Zoroastrian texts; as it explains the detail of where the world became corrupted by Ravenous Forces.

    I'd also highly recommend the film Chronicles of Riddick, as it has a similar plot to what has happened spiritually.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I would say good bye but I know the sun will most likely come up tomorrow and both of us will most likely talk again on this forum.

    I enjoyed the Chronicles of Riddick but its fantasy as opposed to reality.
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I agree it describes the Messianic era and that’s made even clearer by the next two verses I Isaiah 11:9-10. The website is useful for having a Jewish perspective so thanks for that.

    Interesting passage. I suspect the imagery of nature and wild beasts were particularly evocative for a peoples living nearly three thousand years ago when Isaiah was written. Even more so in the days of Moses and during the 40 years in the wilderness. The contrasting images of animals being associated with peace and blessings as opposed to darkness and curses is powerful.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,968
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Our sun will still be here, it will just be 7 times brighter (Isaiah 30:26); it is just the people who follow the ravenous lies are removed at the coming of the quantum Fire (Isaiah 24:18-23).
    It is a metaphor that our reality has been taken over by a necromantic cult; this is what the world's ancient religions prophesied will happen.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,846
    Ratings:
    +8,303
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I would see these verses metaphorically as the sun and moon represent luminous bodies in the heaven of God’s religion and the light of guidance through His Great Prophets shines with great intensity.

    If your reality is your soul being possessed from oppressive and dark forces, then its a useful metaphor.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,968
    Religion:
    Øneness
    The chapters are about Judgement on the whole world; if we take one verse out of contexts, we're not being logical with the data provided.

    It would be nice that people just listen to the message of God; yet what is stated is the world will go opposite, and then Judgement will keep those who went the right way.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,196
    Ratings:
    +417
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    Why do you think so? Carnivores can even nowadays eat plants.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,684
    Ratings:
    +2,051
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Considering that most of Isaiah is poetry, the meaning is symbolic not literal. As Christians we understand this to be a messianic text, but that may be reading into it more than what Isaiah intended, a new David from the 'stem, root', of David's father, Jessie is the hope for the future, nothing is impossible for God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    7,525
    Ratings:
    +4,782
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The narrative of the dream in Daniel 7 seems very different.

    One thing about the dream in Daniel 7, the elements are shifting through out the dream conveying the passage of time...

    It's similar to Pharaoh's dream ( the 7 fat cows and the 7 shriveled cows ) in that way. The dream had movement, so to speak. And the dream interpreter utilized this to derive a series of events yet to occur in the future, a prophecy.

    In Isaiah 11, the entire chapter is more of a proclamation, it doesn't show a passage of time, the elements are not shifting at all. Each verse is a statement. To me this indicates a straight forward literal meaning of the words. As further support for this, starting at Isaiah 11:11 specific nations are listed. And that continues through 11:16. There is no symbolism needed if the nations are mentioned explicitly just a few verses later, IMHO.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
Loading...