The virtues of caste system

[Vinayaka]

no i wasnt saying that at all

to the contrary, i believe the caste system was imposed on the indians by the aryan invaders who sought to subjugate them....the aryans are lighter skin races and this could very well explain why the caste system puts the lighter skin colors above the darker skins.

perhaps after many years, the hindu sages sought to give a religious explanation for why there was a difference in the classes of people and that is how the caste system became so embedded in the Indians psyche. While i dont believe the religion was the instigator of the caste system, I do believe it was used to give the caste system a solid foundation

The Aryan Invasion Theory has more or less been totally disproved. In India, probably only 5% of Academia still adheres to it. In the west it is much higher. The caste system is different than caste based discrimination. Caste is on its way out, but this varies a lot geographically. India is a very large country with a multitude of belief systems. Sure there are some who still adhere to a rigid system. But in my travels its fairly few and far between. Other countries have class based discrimination. You think paupers in the west can become successful politicians? There are certain facets of recognising your own skills, or having others recognise them at an early age that are really beneficial to society as a whole. This would speak to the origins of class. Here in the west I often think that students would be better off if education was more 'casted' and choices were made far earlier in life. Many people are wasting their time going for unrealistic goals. Sorry for the rant.

 

[Riverwolf]

The Aryan Invasion Theory has more or less been totally disproved. In India, probably only 5% of Academia still adheres to it. In the west it is much higher. The caste system is different than caste based discrimination. Caste is on its way out, but this varies a lot geographically. India is a very large country with a multitude of belief systems. Sure there are some who still adhere to a rigid system. But in my travels its fairly few and far between. Other countries have class based discrimination. You think paupers in the west can become successful politicians? There are certain facets of recognising your own skills, or having others recognise them at an early age that are really beneficial to society as a whole. This would speak to the origins of class. Here in the west I often think that students would be better off if education was more 'casted' and choices were made far earlier in life. Many people are wasting their time going for unrealistic goals. Sorry for the rant.

I actually think, knowing what goes on in kid-society around these parts, such a segregation would actually just cause them to bully each other based on difference, thus causing more problems. So such a system of education would actually not be a good idea.

HOWEVER, I do think "know yourself, what you're good at, and what you're not so good at" is not expounded upon enough. In fact, there's kind of an implied myth that EVERYBODY is perfectly capable of doing EVERYTHING. I've seen only one motivational poster for kids that gave this teaching: "Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do something."

It would also be nice if teenagers had more flexibility in choosing what kind of learning they want to specialize in. (Before that, from what I understand, it might still be somewhat unclear what they're disposed towards.)

 

[Revoltingest]

You think paupers in the west can become successful politicians?

Do you think that people can't rise from low beginnings to wild success in the west?

 

[Riverwolf]

Do you think that people can't rise from low beginnings to wild success in the west?

That's not quite what it's about.

A person who goes through a "rags to riches" is probably a person who was naturally disposed towards the position that he or she eventually obtained, and NOT the one that he or she was born into.

I, for example, as I am now, would send this country and probably the world to a BAD dark age if I ever became president, because I'm a storyteller. Politics are not my strong point, and it would take too long to learn all the ins and outs of politics in order to be good at it, when I could have spent the rest of that time happily telling stories.

Therefore, just because someone manages to go through a "rags to riches" scenario doesn't mean he or she will actually be good at the position he or she ends up in.

I don't think success is measured just by the amount of money you end up with. It's also about whether or not you're happy with your position, AND that you're good at it.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are a lot of things I'm against. I'm against casteism, sexism , racism, ageism, and the last one to go, looksism (judging based on physical appearance alone) I'm also against making massive generalisations about another country, faith, or culture without knowing the whole story. I'm also against the pot calling the kettle black. One can find all of the isms and more aforementioned in any country of the planet. Pointing it out is a futile egoistic 'holier than thou' attitude. The real question, one that is served up by most faiths is, Am I _______? Fill in the blank with any of the aforementioned isms. Forget criticising others and have a look in the mirror. If we all did that, the world would be a bette rplace.

 

[Penumbra]

Today our modern standpoint is that the (Indian) caste system is an evil and should be abolished. Our democratic perception regards everything which seems to make people unequal as unequivocally bad. In our hurry to condemn it, however we often disregard its original understanding, and the reason it was put forth in religious texts such as the Baghvad Gita. This article attempts to throw some light on the virtues of the original meaning of propounding the caste system which often gets overshadowed by its later developed defects.

In the Gita, the four castes: the brahmins, the kshatriyas, the vaishyas and the sudras (roughly the priests, warriors, merchants and the servants) are described in relation to the duties associated with them. The idea that is stressed upon is the dharma: the natural way of life. Each person has a natural capacity inbuilt in him and his dharma is determined accordingly. What is the dharma of the priest is different from the dharma of the warrior. In other words their capacities being different also implies that the duties and responsibilities they have to accept in life are also different. Moreover further stress is laid down on the fact that everyone has to follow their dharma with a spirit of detachment from the fruits of their actions. To quote: "You have the right to work, but for work's sake only. You have no right to the fruits of work...Perform every action with your heart fixed on the Supreme Lord. Renounce attachment to the fruits....In the calm of self surrender, the seers renounce the fruits of their actions, and so reach enlightment."

The caste system in the Gita differentiates between men, but that differentiation is not for material gains. Rather it is a natural and harmonious differentation which helps everyone in the community become spiritually developed. The Brahmin is not just a priest of a community, he is also the tap through which the community draw spiritual water. The Brahmin of the Gita may or may not be an expert theologian, but he is neccessarily one who has had direct experience of the spiritual knowledge. In this way he is able to guide and connect with everyone in the community and fill the vaccum which only material thoughts in a person often creates. The Kshatriya is not only a warrior, but a leader in peace as well. His courage, determination and generosity inspire and develop neccessary strength in people which they will need to become enlightened. The Vaishya is very different from the modern businessman. His role is in reality nearly opposite to what is understood today. In pursuance of Gita's understanding of non-attachment with their work for everyone, the original Vaishya has absolutely no right to squeeze out profits and cause loss to others. The real Vaishya is one who becomes a provider of the community thereby making sure that the natural harmony of the community as a whole does not get disrupted. The Sudra's role is one of self-dedication. He is not the sullen servant but a willing one. Like the others, without him, the community would descend into chaos.

The caste system's greatest defence is that it is related to the idea of spiritual development of a person. It loses meaning and becomes evil without it. Inwardly if every person performs his role with a spirit of detachment as advised, the roles themselves become mere rituals and symbols. As such the actions slowly descend into the background. What comes in the spotlight are things like knowledge, determination, welfare and dedication. Ultimately they become really relevant in the community, guiding everyone on their spiritual quest. Externally also, the natural harmony in the society, acts as an impetus to this developement for everyone. For the world as a whole peace outside is connected deeply with peace within.

The abilities and desires that people have can determine what they do, but to divide it into classes and a hierarchy has no good in it. Let people make up their minds about what they want to do, and to change whatever they do if they so wish to, rather then defining one to be above the other and/or trying to enforce or promote this sort of system.

The Brahmin of the Gita may or may not be an expert theologian, but he is neccessarily one who has had direct experience of the spiritual knowledge.

And how would one determine that? The highest class defines their basis in something elusive and unprovable. It's like saying I get to be the Queen because God desires me to be.

Not that I am aware of.
This is perhaps thought of as a natural system. Those inclined toward certain lifestyles are the ones who developed the particular group and duties associated. Then their children followed in the same line.
In other words, some people are more inclined to working in politics or in the army, while some are more inclined to agriculture and others in devoting their lives to education, reading, spirituality etc.

Certain people are of course inclined towards certain abilities based on nature and nurture, but anything that requires a system to describe it in terms of levels and groups and utilize it isn't natural. A system built on that type of belief is not only unnecessary, but can and has lead towards abuse and evil.

The caste system is like any hierarchy we've seen in societies, certainly not just India. But it considers that people's nature is passed from parent to child- ie/ genetics. So a passionate, physical person will produce passionate and physical offspring. Those offspring take on the duties of the parents.

That is the idea behind it. I have no problem with its existence in the past. But it doesn't work today for various reasons.

And it's a badly flawed idea, both past and present. It's basically genetic profiling.

 

[Revoltingest]

How many here are fans of the movie Gattaca?
The caste system seems like a less competent version of evil.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

It seems that Gnomen's claim has some basis in fact.
Dalit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The "caste system" deals with outcasts too.

Read this quote from Wikipedia

The Harijans, or the people outside the caste system, had the lowest social status.

Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Caste is a Portuguese word not an Indian one, the Sanskrit word is varna.

There are 4 Varnas are as following order:

Brahman=priest or teacher

Kshatriya=ruler, warrior

Vaishya=merchants

Shudra=Farmers

The Dalits, Harijan or untouchables are out side the caste system this is why they have a low position.

There are also jatis I will not even get in to that.

 

[Revoltingest]

They still appear to have been incorporated, albeit not formally.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Do you think that people can't rise from low beginnings to wild success in the west?

Social mobility is not all that great in America.

Social Immobility: Climbing The Economic Ladder Is Harder In The U.S. Than In Most European Countries

 

[Penumbra]

The way I see it, people who promote the values of the caste system are similar to, say, people who talk about "the good old days", where they envision things were a lot better at one time.

To my knowledge, the caste system was indeed somewhat different a while ago, but it's not prudent to defend it. People could sometimes move between classes, and I've read that there are scriptures defending this. There were apparently still people that had very, very low jobs and were shunned because of it.

But once people start grouping others into the idea of classes, especially in a hierarchy, it opens up all sorts of aspects of inequality and abuse. It's not just an assessment of a person's wealth or job; it's essentially defining people by their job and their abilities, and calling them a group. Then you get rituals, feelings of superiority, vague and unfalsifiable religious defenses of duties, etc.

Just let people be called people. Sure, in an economic sense, it may be useful to observe that there are socioeconomic groups, but if anything, that assessment should be used to prevent things from getting out of control by identifying potential holes in society (like being unable to access quality education, etc.).

 

[Revoltingest]

Social mobility is not all that great in America.
Social Immobility: Climbing The Economic Ladder Is Harder In The U.S. Than In Most European Countries

It isn't a contest to see who is worse, nor is my point defeated by America's faults.
Life will never be fair...but I detest a system which intentionally imposes limitations based upon family.
As for the US, I know many people who came from dirt poor backgrounds here who did well. Mobility exists.

 

[Vinayaka]

Please raise your hand if you have been to India and witnessed it first hand.
If not, then who are you believing? The first thing one should ask is (not just about this issue) "Who wrote the report and did they have a vested interest in writing the report the way they did?

for further info http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_380/ai_n14919506/

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The way I see it, people who promote the values of the caste system are similar to, say, people who talk about "the good old days", where they envision things were a lot better at one time.

I would just like to comment. As far I as am concerned we have a caste system in America. Today if you are from a rich family and your mom is an alumni of Harvard you have a much better chance of getting in to that college. Even if you have a lower GPA then other students. If you live in the rich part of town your children's school is much better funded then the poor side of town. If you are black and use drugs you will get more jail time then your white friend when both of you are found guilty. If you are rich you have a much better chance of not going to jail for any crime you have committed. Because you can buy the best legal defense possible.

It is just our caste system is based on money. Our caste system also seems to be becoming less and less based on ability and more and more a product of birth.

 

[Penumbra]

I would just like to comment. As far I as am concerned we have a caste system in America. Today if you are from a rich family and your mom is an alumni of Harvard you have a much better chance of getting in to that college. Even if you have a lower GPA then other students. If you live in the rich part of town your children's school is much better funded then the poor side of town. If you are black and use drugs you will get more jail time then your white friend when both of you are found guilty. If you are rich you have a much better chance of not going to jail for any crime you have committed. Because you can buy the best legal defense possible.

It is just our caste system is based on money. Our caste system also seems to be becoming less and less based on ability and more and more a product of birth.

I grew up in poverty, including living for years in homeless shelters. I'm currently an electronics engineer.

I agree that there is a vicious cycle of poverty, but I observe that it has more to do with social issues than financial ones, although money is part of the problem.

 

[Riverwolf]

The way I see it, people who promote the values of the caste system are similar to, say, people who talk about "the good old days", where they envision things were a lot better at one time.

To my knowledge, the caste system was indeed somewhat different a while ago, but it's not prudent to defend it. People could sometimes move between classes, and I've read that there are scriptures defending this. There were apparently still people that had very, very low jobs and were shunned because of it.

But once people start grouping others into the idea of classes, especially in a hierarchy, it opens up all sorts of aspects of inequality and abuse. It's not just an assessment of a person's wealth or job; it's essentially defining people by their job and their abilities, and calling them a group. Then you get rituals, feelings of superiority, vague and unfalsifiable religious defenses of duties, etc.

Just let people be called people. Sure, in an economic sense, it may be useful to observe that there are socioeconomic groups, but if anything, that assessment should be used to prevent things from getting out of control by identifying potential holes in society (like being unable to access quality education, etc.).

:clap Nailed it.

 

[Milind2469]

I grew up in poverty, including living for years in homeless shelters. I'm currently an electronics engineer.

That's great achievement! Hope you enjoyed yesterday on women's day!

The fact that people here compare the USA of 2011 AD with Central Asia of 5000 or 10000 BC it self makes me proud of my culture. I don't care which side wins

 

[Madhuri]

The way I see it, people who promote the values of the caste system are similar to, say, people who talk about "the good old days", where they envision things were a lot better at one time.

To my knowledge, the caste system was indeed somewhat different a while ago, but it's not prudent to defend it. People could sometimes move between classes, and I've read that there are scriptures defending this. There were apparently still people that had very, very low jobs and were shunned because of it.

But once people start grouping others into the idea of classes, especially in a hierarchy, it opens up all sorts of aspects of inequality and abuse. It's not just an assessment of a person's wealth or job; it's essentially defining people by their job and their abilities, and calling them a group. Then you get rituals, feelings of superiority, vague and unfalsifiable religious defenses of duties, etc.

Just let people be called people. Sure, in an economic sense, it may be useful to observe that there are socioeconomic groups, but if anything, that assessment should be used to prevent things from getting out of control by identifying potential holes in society (like being unable to access quality education, etc.).

I agree with this, and I don't 'support' a caste system. My only comment for those who criticise a class system with the argument that is creates inequality is to say that inequality exists in any society. Even if it isn't formalised, we still have social hierarchies, we still treat different people differently and there is still a lot of inequality.
But to be clear, I'm not defending a formal class system.

In fact, my 'defence' of the ancient Indian class system is mostly due to the fact that most people misunderstand it, and usually assume that the contemporary situation in India is somehow a part of my religion, which is absolutely is not.

 

[Milind2469]

contemporary situation in India .

If anyone is interested at all, here it is (castes are sub groups within 4 varnas)

1. Persons are still identified with castes. This is done to enumerate different castes so that the backward one can enjoy the benefits of govt. special measures to uplift them.

2. Castes have completely disappered from public places. There is no discrimination whatsoever in offices, hotels, streets etc.

3. Castes are however kept alive by politicians in order to get community votes. Indian politics does attain lower levels each day. Apart from castes they also divide voters on the basis of regions, languages, religions.

4. In some remote villages caste system is still alive esp. among illeterates (at least in their minds). Not that it is legal. They can't do anything in open.

5. Inter caste marriages are common. However, if it is an arranged marriage (like you put in an ad for a suitable match), people still prefer spouce within the community. This is not out of hatred, but mostly because family kind of traditions are unique to the castes. (e.g. in a Brahmin family , non veg food or spicy food is not prepared but in a kshtriya house it is enjoyed) If you have choice, then why not within the caste? that is how they think..If the young ones are not dominated by the elders, they do not care much about this.

6. The new generations tend to care less and less about this tradition.

7. Any discrimination on the basis of caste is ILLEGAL in India.

 

[Revoltingest]

As far I as am concerned we have a caste system in America. Today if you are from a rich family and your mom is an alumni of Harvard you have a much better chance of getting in to that college. Even if you have a lower GPA then other students. If you live in the rich part of town your children's school is much better funded then the poor side of town. If you are black and use drugs you will get more jail time then your white friend when both of you are found guilty. If you are rich you have a much better chance of not going to jail for any crime you have committed. Because you can buy the best legal defense possible.
It is just our caste system is based on money. Our caste system also seems to be becoming less and less based on ability and more and more a product of birth.

To call that a caste system looks hollow.
We lack the intent to enforce a designated social & economic status upon an individual.
The term "caste system" should mean something narrower than a general lament that "life isn't fair".