The virtues of caste system

[LuisDantas]

Just so you know I dont believe in this notion of segregating religions as Abrahamist or Dharmist. For me it is all one.

In a perfect world they would be. In practice, there are often very significant differences in approach, practice and even goals, and I find it useful to recognize them.

 

[Breathe]

This thread has been quite an amusing read.

So many misunderstandings of the varṇa system. Heh.
Can't say anything that's not been said, though.

My two cents are:

1. Jāti is not varṇa. Former is by birth, and un-Vedic, latter is Vedic.
2. I disagree with jāti system.
3. To me, varṇa should be personal, private and fluid, so it shouldn't affect how I treat someone. I treat everyone as equals, regardless of race, caste, creed, sex, or sexuality. So, in effect, I don't bother with the varṇa.
4. Don't care for Manusmṛti.
5. Dalits are a sad case, and their treatment is not how the varṇa is supposed to occur. I oppose all caste discrimination, like all discrimination.
6. Aryan Invasion Theory is bullcrap.
7. Non-Hindu Indians have castes, even when it goes against their religion. Even Sikhs, whose religion explicitly prohibits casteism, some discriminate against others.
8. Non-Indians had castes, including Japan, Korea, and some African countries. I've pulled this up before but can't be bothered to. Hell, what do you think "chavs" and "white trash" are? People whom others look down on. Many Brits have a problem with "pikeys", for example. Same damn thing.
9. It doesn't hurt to learn a bit about the historicity or read the OP before throwing a fit.
10. Take a deep breath before you post.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

This thread has been quite an amusing read.

So many misunderstandings of the varṇa system. Heh.
Can't say anything that's not been said, though.

My two cents are:

1. Jāti is not varṇa. Former is by birth, and un-Vedic, latter is Vedic.
2. I disagree with jāti system.
3. To me, varṇa should be personal, private and fluid, so it shouldn't affect how I treat someone. I treat everyone as equals, regardless of race, caste, creed, sex, or sexuality. So, in effect, I don't bother with the varṇa.
4. Don't care for Manusmṛti.
5. Dalits are a sad case, and their treatment is not how the varṇa is supposed to occur. I oppose all caste discrimination, like all discrimination.
6. Aryan Invasion Theory is bullcrap.
7. Non-Hindu Indians have castes, even when it goes against their religion. Even Sikhs, whose religion explicitly prohibits casteism, some discriminate against others.
8. Non-Indians had castes, including Japan, Korea, and some African countries. I've pulled this up before but can't be bothered to. Hell, what do you think "chavs" and "white trash" are? People whom others look down on. Many Brits have a problem with "pikeys", for example. Same damn thing.
9. It doesn't hurt to learn a bit about the historicity or read the OP before throwing a fit.
10. Take a deep breath before you post.

Nice and concise it sheds light on the subject.:tribal2:

I have an emotional nature but I try to take a deep breath.

 

[Breathe]

Nice and concise it sheds light on the subject.:tribal2:

Lol, thanks! Glad it's useful. I know I forgot something, but I keep forgetting what it was.

I have an emotional nature but I try to take a deep breath.

Of course, important when discussing stuff. I usually just grin at how most critics of it don't understand it.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Non-Hindu Indians have castes, even when it goes against their religion.

I just found out that the Theravada Buddhist in Sri Lanka have a caste system. The Emperor Ashoka converted the Island to Buddhism over 2000 years ago. I have a hard time blaming the Hindus for it.

 

[Breathe]

I have a hard time blaming the Hindus for it.

Ironically, a lot of others don't.

 

[Pegg]

I thought there was some number of chosen people. Perhaps I've been talking to the wrong JW s at my door.

different people are chosen for a particular role, but they are all of 'one flock' ,,,they are not set apart as different or special to any other member of the flock. The elders in our congregation also clean the toilets in our congregation.

 

[Milind2469]

Aryan Invasion Theory is bullcrap.

Hey but it explains the only blemish on Hinduism.
Native Hindus couldn't have done this (discrimination).
It came from Europe
(This is a joke).

 

[gnomon]

I lost my original post but let me just say this in response to those who have criticized my understanding of caste.

I will stand along the side of Siddhartha and the reformers regarding caste.

It is a racist, imbecilic system. I will take the words of human rights organizations and Dalits themselves over any member of this forum who would excuse a ridiculous system.

Anyone who would apologize for the caste system, and I mean an apologetic in a religious sense, could do no better than if they donned a white robe and a white pointed cap and proceeded to march around Birmingham, Alabama.

Do I need to be any clearer?

 

[Madhuri]

I lost my original post but let me just say this in response to those who have criticized my understanding of caste.

I will stand along the side of Siddhartha and the reformers regarding caste.

It is a racist, imbecilic system. I will take the words of human rights organizations and Dalits themselves over any member of this forum who would excuse a ridiculous system.

Anyone who would apologize for the caste system, and I mean an apologetic in a religious sense, could do no better than if they donned a white robe and a white pointed cap and proceeded to march around Birmingham, Alabama.

Do I need to be any clearer?

So clearly you did not read any of the responses because if you had, you'd realise that nobody is in favour of the current corrupt caste system.

 

[gnomon]

I read the responses.

Namely the response by Wannabe Yogi that because Hindu religious caste system did not include the Dalits that they were not part of the discussion they were excluded never mind the fact that ignores the reality of the situation.

I still stand by all my statements that Dalits are still discriminated against in Hindu society and that I get my information from those Dalits and humanitarian groups that try to bring attention to them.

But if you state as you do than you would agree with my initial statement that the caste system is garbage.

That was what I said to begin with.

But feel free to read Wannabe's responses to my posts. In the meantime I will rely on the Dalits who live in India and their experiences rather than those who live in other nations and adopted the religion.

Don't like it.

Don't care.

 

[Madhuri]

My argument with you from the beginning was about your misunderstanding of the OP.
The caste system we see today is a part of Indian culture, not Hindu religion. There are Hindus all over the world but we don't adhere to the caste system because it isn't actually a part of our religion. It is cultural only.
When we read our scriptures there are refernces to the varna system, the original social model. The dalits did not even exist at that time. They were never meant to, because such a way of treating or seeing people is disgraceful and actually quite in contrast with the tenets of Hindu philosophy.

So please don't think that the Hindus on this forum are defensive of the caste system, because we are not. The OP is shedding light on what the system was originally, not what we see today.

The reason why this is important is because so many people these days associate the caste system with our Hindu religion. This is really annoying, because it isn't true. People have a lot of misconceptions.

 

[Breathe]

I read the responses.

<<snip>>

Don't like it.

Don't care.

Your attitude says you haven't understood, and you're not even listening, as we explained that modern Indian caste system isn't Hindu.

Ever heard of "white trash"? Yeah. That's effectively a caste system. I'm part of one of the lower rungs of society (lower working class), and I've been refused jobs for "coming from an undesirable background and living in an undesirable area". Take the speck out of your own society's collective eye before you go around criticising others', even if it's a valid point.

Also, your "won't listen to others who adopted it" comes across as racist and ignorant. Please don't make such disparaging remarks on something you obviously don't seem to understand. If you DID understand it, you'd know nobody here is saying they like how it's done in modern society.

There's caste systems in dozens of societies. Nepal has one, so does Sri Lanka's Buddhist communities. Many Sikhs even follow caste despite being prohibited from doing so. Even Muslims and Christians in South Asia follow it. Japan had a caste system, as did Korea. As do some African countries, even Hawai'i did. So did Yemen. Nigeria and Cameroon, the Mandé of West Africa, in Rwanda and Burundi, in Southern Ethiopia, and we even find Algeria. Even Tuaregs have caste systems. It's a common thing.

It's not to be supported, but making foolish, clueless statements and being rude doesn't help anyone. You won't find anyone here who supports the modern caste system, and you will find it slowly being eroded. Not fast enough, but two-thousand plus year old habits die hard.


Here's a partial list of born Hindus and Indians who actively went against the caste system of their day.

• Vardhamana (Mahavira)
• Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha)
• Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh
• Saint Kabir
• Caitanya
• Dnyaneshwar
• Eknath
• Ramanuja
• Tukaram
• Swami Vivekananda
• Ramananda
• Nandanar
• Sri Aurobindo
• AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
• Swami Dayananda Saraswati
• Paramahansa Yogananda
• Ravidass
• Basava
• Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
• Swami Sathyananda Saraswathi
• Raja Ram Mohan Roy
• Mannathu Padmanabhan
• Narayana Guru
• Ambedkar
• ...and Sathya Sai Baba.

There's more. Want me to carry on listing them?


People have been trying to curb the caste system who were Hindus for a long time. You insulting whole groups of people, and effectively calling converts "clueless" is pretty ignorant and condescending.

Does that help? Now, can we go back to intelligent conversation now I've pointed out a few basic facts?

 

[doorknob]

Today our modern standpoint is that the (Indian) caste system is an evil and should be abolished. Our democratic perception regards everything which seems to make people unequal as unequivocally bad. In our hurry to condemn it, however we often disregard its original understanding, and the reason it was put forth in religious texts such as the Baghvad Gita. This article attempts to throw some light on the virtues of the original meaning of propounding the caste system which often gets overshadowed by its later developed defects.

In the Gita, the four castes: the brahmins, the kshatriyas, the vaishyas and the sudras (roughly the priests, warriors, merchants and the servants) are described in relation to the duties associated with them. The idea that is stressed upon is the dharma: the natural way of life. Each person has a natural capacity inbuilt in him and his dharma is determined accordingly. What is the dharma of the priest is different from the dharma of the warrior. In other words their capacities being different also implies that the duties and responsibilities they have to accept in life are also different. Moreover further stress is laid down on the fact that everyone has to follow their dharma with a spirit of detachment from the fruits of their actions. To quote: "You have the right to work, but for work's sake only. You have no right to the fruits of work...Perform every action with your heart fixed on the Supreme Lord. Renounce attachment to the fruits....In the calm of self surrender, the seers renounce the fruits of their actions, and so reach enlightment."

The caste system in the Gita differentiates between men, but that differentiation is not for material gains. Rather it is a natural and harmonious differentation which helps everyone in the community become spiritually developed. The Brahmin is not just a priest of a community, he is also the tap through which the community draw spiritual water. The Brahmin of the Gita may or may not be an expert theologian, but he is neccessarily one who has had direct experience of the spiritual knowledge. In this way he is able to guide and connect with everyone in the community and fill the vaccum which only material thoughts in a person often creates. The Kshatriya is not only a warrior, but a leader in peace as well. His courage, determination and generosity inspire and develop neccessary strength in people which they will need to become enlightened. The Vaishya is very different from the modern businessman. His role is in reality nearly opposite to what is understood today. In pursuance of Gita's understanding of non-attachment with their work for everyone, the original Vaishya has absolutely no right to squeeze out profits and cause loss to others. The real Vaishya is one who becomes a provider of the community thereby making sure that the natural harmony of the community as a whole does not get disrupted. The Sudra's role is one of self-dedication. He is not the sullen servant but a willing one. Like the others, without him, the community would descend into chaos.

The caste system's greatest defence is that it is related to the idea of spiritual development of a person. It loses meaning and becomes evil without it. Inwardly if every person performs his role with a spirit of detachment as advised, the roles themselves become mere rituals and symbols. As such the actions slowly descend into the background. What comes in the spotlight are things like knowledge, determination, welfare and dedication. Ultimately they become really relevant in the community, guiding everyone on their spiritual quest. Externally also, the natural harmony in the society, acts as an impetus to this developement for everyone. For the world as a whole peace outside is connected deeply with peace within.

Really so what do you think of the amish then? The also believe in working for the sake of work.

Aslo how is one to predetermine their capacity? For example I have a capacity for understanding electronics yet know one else in my family does. Until I was trained in the field of electronics how could this religion have possibly know that I have a capacity for it? Also this kind of thinking is what crippled india to begin with. By assigning a duty and not really allowing room for any other possible duties to fulfill it cripples every human involved as no one can reach their full potential this way.

Considering that india's social structure is set up to basically keep the poor in their place and uses their religion to keep them there, how do you justify it?

 

[Riverwolf]

Really so what do you think of the amish then? The also believe in working for the sake of work.

Aslo how is one to predetermine their capacity? For example I have a capacity for understanding electronics yet know one else in my family does. Until I was trained in the field of electronics how could this religion have possibly know that I have a capacity for it? Also this kind of thinking is what crippled india to begin with. By assigning a duty and not really allowing room for any other possible duties to fulfill it cripples every human involved as no one can reach their full potential this way.

Considering that india's social structure is set up to basically keep the poor in their place and uses their religion to keep them there, how do you justify it?

Read through the rest of the thread. Nobody's justifying the modern social structure. What's being defended is the original one, which wasn't based on birth.

It's possible even now to make an estimation of what a child may be suitable for based on habits, play, etc. Perhaps the people who came up with the Varna system (which cannot apply today, anyway, because of the existence of only four "jobs"), had a similar method.

It should be noted that in Scriptures, there are stories of people going from one Varna to another, albeit with really hard work. So it wasn't so rigid as it became.

It fell apart because it's so easy to exploit by the power-hungry.

Today, it has nothing to do with religion. In fact, all of the Sages I've read do not believe in it.

 

[doorknob]

I'm sorry but the rest I can not even support it's original premise either. That is too limiting! Also who has the right to tell some one what they have a capacity for? True we have aptitude tests but lots of people picks something else and manage to do well at it! Also Albert Einstein in his time was considered a retard as a child because he was largely misunderstood. There for what makes you think any human has the power or the right to decide what some one else's capacity for is?

I dis agree his original statement and I am bringing it up again. I very clearly read it and trust me I understand what he said. I just don't see how what he is saying has any validity. Yes in theory lots of religious and other non religious philosophies look good and make sense on paper. but they never work in practice because of unforeseen complications. Also this is not different from marxism yet in practice marxism also never works out. If some one can never get ahead in life or are guaranteed something they are not motivated to work to their full potential. This is why this has never worked in practice and always has perverted to what is in human nature to do.

The privileged will always feel superior and never blessed while the poor (or low class but in your description servants) will never be satisfied with their position and come to resent the upper classes. And I did see that it has been stated previously by many others that this is really not any different that what happens naturally in practically ever social structure through out history. People often are blessed or cursed and prevented from changing their social position simply because they were born into it.

Just because you are trying to place some kind of spirituality and religious aspect to try and fix it and make it better isn't going to change what it is. It is just a poor way to structure a society that has continued through out history and places too many limitations on the people it is trying to define. it has never been to the benefit of man kind that is why we must abandon these beliefs and move past it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm sorry but the rest I can not even support it's original premise either. That is too limiting!

The available options were limited at the time. There were literally no other roles in existence.

Remember that this was thousands of years ago.

Also who has the right to tell some one what they have a capacity for? True we have aptitude tests but lots of people picks something else and manage to do well at it! Also Albert Einstein in his time was considered a retard as a child because he was largely misunderstood. There for what makes you think any human has the power or the right to decide what some one else's capacity for is?

Nothing. I figure out my own Dharma, and follow it. Back then, I imagine Brahmana astrologers would have been the deciders.

I dis agree his original statement and I am bringing it up again. I very clearly read it and trust me I understand what he said. I just don't see how what he is saying has any validity. Yes in theory lots of religious and other non religious philosophies look good and make sense on paper. but they never work in practice because of unforeseen complications. Also this is not different from marxism yet in practice marxism also never works out. If some one can never get ahead in life or are guaranteed something they are not motivated to work to their full potential. This is why this has never worked in practice and always has perverted to what is in human nature to do.

I already compared it to Communism, for the same reason you mention now.

I also did bring up three reasons why the original system doesn't work.

The privileged will always feel superior and never blessed while the poor (or low class but in your description servants) will never be satisfied with their position and come to resent the upper classes.

I beg to differ. Many people do not see servitude as resentful, so long as they are treated well. Not every privileged person feels superior, either.

Blanket statements never work.

And I did see that it has been stated previously by many others that this is really not any different that what happens naturally in practically ever social structure through out history. People often are blessed or cursed and prevented from changing their social position simply because they were born into it.

Just because you are trying to place some kind of spirituality and religious aspect to try and fix it and make it better isn't going to change what it is. It is just a poor way to structure a society that has continued through out history and places too many limitations on the people it is trying to define. it has never been to the benefit of man kind that is why we must abandon these beliefs and move past it.

The only "religious" aspect to the whole thing is learning what one's Dharma is, and following it rather than someone else's. Nowadays, there are far more options available than back then.

After all, like it or not, once we reach adulthood, we have limitations. I, for example, can never be a sports star because for one, I don't care at all about sports, and for another I'm not in any physical condition and it would take years for me to develop the health and body necessary. Nor can I ever be a soldier, because of my pacifistic attitude as well as the simple fact that I'd turn coward and run. (I don't do well in high-pressure situations.) But nowadays, there's still hundreds of things that I could do well in. Back then, I would most likely have either been a Brahmana (strong interest in religion) or a Sudra (I have a servant-like mind.) I don't have the aggressive attitude necessary for a Kshatria, nor the discipline needed to be a Vaishya.

Therefore, the reason we can abandon this mindset now is because we are no longer so severely limited in what we can do.

 

[Madhuri]

Doorknob,
an important point to understand here is that we cannot judge the system back then with the contexts of contemporary society.

The system would never work now for reasons that you mentioned and that others have mentioned.

In addition, there are some important underlying principles at the core of this system. Krishna emphasises in the Gita the importance of performing one's duties in life. For a person who agrees with and dedicates himself to Vedic spiritual wisdom, there is no longer any focus on or attachment to material activities or the fruits of those activities. When Self-Realisation becomes our goal, then reaching or fulfilling our potential, as you say, is not something that happens in some mundane job but rather through Self discovery and spiritual evolution.

But life must go on, and for life to go on, we must serve society in some capacity by working, by having families, by fighting for our country etc. We find ourselves with duties, and we are expected to perform them to the best of our ability while remaining detached to the fruits of material activities.

So these underlying principles are thus to perform our duty, to remain detached, to strive for spiritual realisation.