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The virtues of caste system
- Thread starter A-ManESL
- Start date
And I think, based on modern knowledge, such things don't come from birth alone, but are developed through childhood and adolescence.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
yes true, that works in the case of ducts and chickens, but humans are a completely different kettle of fish. The determination should not be based on who your birth parents are
it should be based on your own skills and interests...unfortunately the caste system does not work like that.
That's correct about the modern system. The original system was more like that, though not exactly.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the difference with death is that it doesnt discriminate...rich or poor, intelligent or ignorant, good or bad... all go to the same place
(ps hell is not eternal torment in all religions)
To be fair, it is difficult to tell how exactly the caste system was originally. Odds are good that the reports that reached us are somewhat idealized.
And also, for whatever it is worth, and regardless of whatever merits it may or may not have had previously, the fact of the matter is that it failed to reach our time in a way that is widely understood to be worth preserving. Maybe it wasn't such a great idea in the first place, maybe it was simply not cared for well enough, maybe it couldn't possibly be cared well enough to be worth keeping.
In all honesty, I just don't see how anyone could conclusively know.
And also, for whatever it is worth, and regardless of whatever merits it may or may not have had previously, the fact of the matter is that it failed to reach our time in a way that is widely understood to be worth preserving. Maybe it wasn't such a great idea in the first place, maybe it was simply not cared for well enough, maybe it couldn't possibly be cared well enough to be worth keeping.
In all honesty, I just don't see how anyone could conclusively know.
There is another difference well worth pointing out. Hell is usually presented in such a way to scare even the sincere believers, while the caste system is usually presented (sincerely or otherwise) in a positive way, with at least a nominal attempt at valuing everyone for their assigned roles.
I don't know how or if the Dalits fit in that model, but the ideal presentation of the castes is one where essentially everyone is happy to be in a role that suits their best abilities.
Not to say that it is a good idea, or even necessarily a respectable one. But it must be recognized that it is at least passible of an attempt at a positive, uplifting presentation.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
i dont disagree with assigned roles at all, men and woman have traditionally had assigned roles and it works very well
the problem though is that the caste system takes it a step further and puts people into an assigned status within society...its the status which is divisive. All can have different roles to play, but as soon as one person thinks they are better then another, then there is a problem. As Vinayaka pointed out, its just as prevalent in our society and our religions. Humans are too corruptible and imperfect...everyone thinks they are better then the next person. One has more money, one has more education, one has more of something else and all these things cause division.
I apologize. I guess I know very little about the JW faith. I didn't realise that according to that faith, we all go to the same place. I thought there was some number of chosen people. Perhaps I've been talking to the wrong JW s at my door. I guess if I believed that I could go out raping and pillaging with no consequence. But of course as a Hindu, I don't believe in heaven or hell or evil in any Abrahamic sense. Of course in Hinduism, we all return to the same place too ... here. Unless we've attained moksha. So the cruel Brahmin becomes the sudra he was so cruel to. The idea that via reincarnation, we work our way up through caste is just outdated and wrong, and shows a very poor understanding of karma. As I said before, I'm against any form of discrimination, including one based on caste. But a recognition of one's own abilities is useful, which I believe was the original intention. But as others have so wisely put, it is now distorted. I also object to picking out any one aspect of a very diverse set of religions under one umbrella (Hinduism), and jumping all over it based on knowledge that is told by others, not seen.
A-ManESL,
Persians actually have a somewhat positive view of the caste system. I posted on it in the Hinduism forum.
The Shahnameh by Ferdowsi is an epic composed in 1000 AD that lists the ancient kings of Persia.
The fourth king in the list was named Jemshid, the son of Tahumers. Here is what the epic says about Jemshid's achievements:
Persians actually have a somewhat positive view of the caste system. I posted on it in the Hinduism forum.
The Shahnameh by Ferdowsi is an epic composed in 1000 AD that lists the ancient kings of Persia.
The fourth king in the list was named Jemshid, the son of Tahumers. Here is what the epic says about Jemshid's achievements:
I can understand the sense of shock and horror at apparent attempts of some of us to justify the stratification of society. Good people will always feel horrified with inequity and cruelty and that guides their own good behaviour.
But this thing goes a step further:
Those who understand varna properly will not justify anything.
But this thing goes a step further:
Those who understand varna properly will not justify anything.
- There is nothing to justify -- the universe is stratification -- else it does not exist.
- There is always a problem with secular ideas in that it does not know that there are no individuals.
Even Luis, who is a Buddhist is horrified because he is seeing the whole thing as "I" and "Others". - Are colours of rainbow of one light or are they discriminating against each other? Who will not like a rainbow to persist?
- The four varna (colours) belong to single indivisible divine purusha (person), which appears to senses as 'me' (this object-body) and that universe with all others.
- It is up to individual (one who feels like one) to keep oneself non-discriminatory and not just judge others
At individual level, whether the varna idea is taught or known does not change the fact that a person of rajasic disposition is motivated from birth (and without his knowing) to capture/acquire/rule. A sattwik person will not have such motivation.
Varna is an explanation of this. It does not matter whether you teach varna to a lion or not. It will most likely attack you. However, for me varna is useful for understanding the nature of things and to know that the nature of thing is dependent on guna (tendency of mind) and karma (work).
That is: the nature of things is changeable and in everyone's control.
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Varna is an explanation of this. It does not matter whether you teach varna to a lion or not. It will most likely attack you. However, for me varna is useful for understanding the nature of things and to know that the nature of thing is dependent on guna (tendency of mind) and karma (work).
That is: the nature of things is changeable and in everyone's control.
...
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- There is always a problem with secular ideas in that it does not know that there are no individuals.
Ex-cu-se me?!?
This is the second time that I am left wondering how come you see a problem with "secular ideas". What does that have to do with the matter?
Oh. Pardon me. I realised that my idea of secular ideas and dictionary idea of secular idea are not in sync.
What I meant was the difference between a jnani -- who sees the whole and a ajnani -- who sees all things as separate.
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Fair enough... but I will rather keep my shock. Things may be ultimately inescapably connected and inseparable, but I don't find it fair to demand that others accept it on faith.
People have no duty to take someone else's word that there is a higher purpose that they don't understand. It feels simply wrong when such an argument comes from the mouth of an Abrahamist, and it is not much better coming from a Dharmi.
People have no duty to take someone else's word that there is a higher purpose that they don't understand. It feels simply wrong when such an argument comes from the mouth of an Abrahamist, and it is not much better coming from a Dharmi.
I do not have any problem with the above (nor with abrahamic scripture). Each one has to reason for oneself and scripture acts as a mere pointer.
However, please do not get the notion that I am pitching for casteism. On the contrary, I believe in, Shri Krishna's teaching "Arjuna the truth is beyond the gunas".
And beyond, gunas, there is no division and no caste.
Again, my Guru, Shri Ramana was casteless -- not only men but animals were considered equal. But he would advice devotees not to be hypocritical. If one has cleared all sense of divisions from mind and acted in all spheres of life accordingly then only one can be truly beyond gunas of mind. Else, it is lip service.
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A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
Just so you know I dont believe in this notion of segregating religions as Abrahamist or Dharmist. For me it is all one.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
I once read a book by an Indian sociologist using the concept of caste and the development of modern countries. An example of this was America was run buy the merchant caste, China the labors (this book was written in the early 80's while china was still communist), And Iran the religious leaders. It talked about the up and down sides of each group and the way they perceive the world. I found the book to be out of the box thinking in many ways and very refreshing.