The virtues of caste system

[gnomon]

I'm sorry, you are talking about me?
Please get over the emotional state you are in and re-read my posts. Hopefully you will manage to see that you have just written a lengthy reply that is entirely baseless.

Nope.

You dismissed the Dalits. It's up to you to defend it.

If anyone needs to reread their posts reread their own.

Until that time. The old familiar suggestion remains.

 

[Madhuri]

Nope.

You dismissed the Dalits. It's up to you to defend it.

If anyone needs to reread their posts reread their own.

Until that time. The old familiar suggestion remains.

I didn't say that they didn't matter. My point is that the discussion of Dalits is not relevant to the subject of this thread, which is dealing with the original meaning and intentions of the Indian caste system. Like I said, Dalits were not part of that origin and should not exist today (like I mentioned in one of those posts, which you seem to have ignored, the current system in India is sick and damaging).

So please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I am not showing disrespect here, and I think the caste system may even have been useful at once time, but I call it an innovation into Sanatana Dharma. There was no caste system originally, and I think the Buddha did well to reject it, since to me Buddha was more a reformer of Hinduism, who's teachings later became "Buddhism".

Do people honestly believe the devas see castes? What about Brahman, assuming he has a personality? Does the all-transcendent see caste?

 

[Koldo]

The caste system is like any hierarchy we've seen in societies, certainly not just India. But it considers that people's nature is passed from parent to child- ie/ genetics. So a passionate, physical person will produce passionate and physical offspring. Those offspring take on the duties of the parents.

That is the idea behind it. I have no problem with its existence in the past. But it doesn't work today for various reasons.

I believe that is a wrong assumption done by those people. I can clearly see why people would think this way though. Many people used to be restricted to certain kinds of roles that were passed down through generations. It is not that a merchant will have a merchant as child, it is rather that the merchant's child will have very few options of job, and so it is more likely to learn its parents role than search for a new one.

If, as many suggest, there's been a "mixing of castes," you won't find many pure varnas anymore. People won't feel a strong inclination toward any particular profession or lifestyle, so professional aptitude testing could help to discover which varna you're tempermentally suited for and which jati you'd be most successful in.

There seems to be some social hierarchy on this, and this is what bothers me the most. Please do correct me if i am wrong. But i suppose the castes should be seen as equals.

 

[gnomon]

I didn't say that they didn't matter. My point is that the discussion of Dalits is not relevant to the subject of this thread, which is dealing with the original meaning and intentions of the Indian caste system. Like I said, Dalits were not part of that origin and should not exist today (like I mentioned in one of those posts, which you seem to have ignored, the current system in India is sick and damaging).

So please stop putting words in my mouth.

Than I eat all the crow in the world as well as both feet.

The Dalits have been a long history of the caste system of India. My point is that they are a realistic part of the caste system as far back as Siddhartha and the foundation of Buddhism accepting them as full members of society. Mainstream Indian society, Hindu society, has played a long time in catching up to that part.
They cannot be ignored in discussions of the archaic caste system in Indian society which is based upon the notions of Hindu religion.

Current Indian society has passed laws, though debatable in their effectiveness, in removing caste status from individuals.

There is nothing to respect about the caste system of India. I find people that support it no better than those who support segregation in the US among blacks and whites.

Now I give myself the old familiar suggestion.

 

[Madhuri]

Than I eat all the crow in the world as well as both feet.

The Dalits have been a long history of the caste system of India. My point is that they are a realistic part of the caste system as far back as Siddhartha and the foundation of Buddhism accepting them as full members of society. Mainstream Indian society, Hindu society, has played a long time in catching up to that part.
They cannot be ignored in discussions of the archaic caste system in Indian society which is based upon the notions of Hindu religion.

Current Indian society has passed laws, though debatable in their effectiveness, in removing caste status from individuals.

There is nothing to respect about the caste system of India. I find people that support it no better than those who support segregation in the US among blacks and whites.

Now I give myself the old familiar suggestion.

Nevertheless, the OP is not addressing the meaning of the current caste system in India, but the original meaning which goes back thousands of years.

I think this meaning is important, because today most people assume that the current caste system is part of the Hindu religion. This is a falsehood. It's just how the society has developed over time and become very different to the original model.

What I really want out of this conversation is for you to acknowledge that you misunderstood me because everything you accused me of was wrong, and I found it to be very offensive.

You can argue about the disgusting nature of the current caste system in India all you want. But as it doesn't address the OP, it would be better for a different thread.

 

[Valjean]

There seems to be some social hierarchy on this, and this is what bothers me the most. Please do correct me if i am wrong. But i suppose the castes should be seen as equals.

Of course they should be equal, but human Nature doesn't change. People are insecure and jealous of their stations. We're a nasty species.

 

[Riverwolf]

Gnomon, did you read the OP? You're arguing against something that the OP is most certainly NOT defending. Show me where the untouchables are mentioned in the Purusha Suktam and the Bhagavad Gita, the two most famous texts of certain antiquity that describe the system, and then you can complain about it being related to Hinduism.

You speak so highly of choice. But how many choices are there really? A person of a certain mental disposition will be naturally limited in what he or she can do effectively and happily. I personally disagree that such a disposition is passed down from parent to child, but I don't really think that's part of it. Sure, a person can change his or her disposition to be able to change what he or she can do effectively and happily, but not without a LOT of hard work that may have been unnecessary.

 

[Milind2469]

According to one theory, the different castes or varnas are different races coming from different places altogether.

1.) HOLIGRATIVE PSYCHO-HISTORY OF INDIA

2. )The 4 classes are called Varnas, which literally means colors. EVen today, a dalit looks quite different from a Brahmin.

As per the tendancy, even in a free society, people mingle/ marry/ are more comfortable with the same race.

3.) The DNA composition of different castes are found to different

 

[Riverwolf]

As per the tendancy, even in a free society, people mingle/ marry/ are more comfortable with the same race.

Not really. These days, interracial marriage is quite common.

3.) The DNA composition of different castes are found to different

Who the heck performed THAT study, and who peer-reviewed it?! I'm sorry, but that just sounds ludicrous.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, which study reached that conclusion? I very much doubt one can be found that is not some propaganda vehicle of dubious merit.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Personally am not clear about the genesis of caste system nor practiced by people that am in contact with.
Personal understanding is that it is like so many other divisions in society everywhere like:
Various Classes of Society
Social class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Social class in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ANALYSIS OF THE CLASSES IN CHINESE SOCIETY

Its just another label!

Love & rgds

 

[Milind2469]

interracial marriage is quite common.

They do happen, yes.
But are they common? Are you talking about all places of the world?

Who the heck performed THAT study, and who peer-reviewed it?! I'm sorry, but that just sounds ludicrous.

There have been not one study but multiple studies with multiple aims.
You will have to collect data from various sources.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations
Chitpavan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
www.outlookindia.com | Bones Of A Riddle
Scientists Find Link Between Indian Caste Rank And Genetic Similarity To Europeans
http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/171.pdf
BioMed Central | Full text | Genetic variation in South Indian castes: evidence from Y-chromosome, mitochondrial, and autosomal polymorphisms

 

[Milind2469]

Yes, which study reached that conclusion? I very much doubt one can be found that is not some propaganda vehicle of dubious merit.

just google

 

[Milind2469]

And of course, it is just a theory.
It may be true may be not.
Who knows?
Hindus have a history of thousands of years.
During this period they have ruled (or had links) from Turkey in west to Indonesia in east, from Tibet/ Russia in north to Sri Lanka in south.
Very difficult to research.
It's a mix of so different things/ concepts/ traditions/ customs/ beliefs....

 

[Pegg]

According to one theory, the different castes or varnas are different races coming from different places altogether.

1.) HOLIGRATIVE PSYCHO-HISTORY OF INDIA

2. )The 4 classes are called Varnas, which literally means colors. EVen today, a dalit looks quite different from a Brahmin.

As per the tendancy, even in a free society, people mingle/ marry/ are more comfortable with the same race.

3.) The DNA composition of different castes are found to different

i was going to ask how color is involved because caste and varnas do mean 'color'

So the question really is why is skin color a cause of division? why should a lighter skin color be deemed 'better' then a darker skinned color? Why do the lighter skins get the plush jobs and the darker skins get lumped with the hard laborious ones?

I would ask anyone the examine 'who' originated the caste system for the answer.

 

[Milind2469]

i was going to ask how color is involved because caste and varnas do mean 'color'

So the question really is why is skin color a cause of division? why should a lighter skin color be deemed 'better' then a darker skinned color? Why do the lighter skins get the plush jobs and the darker skins get lumped with the hard laborious ones?

I would ask anyone the examine 'who' originated the caste system for the answer.

You need to understand that Hinduism was a culture and not a religion.
Many kingdoms from various parts of Asia involved in it over a period of thousands of years.
One particular race wins against another becomes better. Not necessarily the lightness of the color.
The dark colored just happened to be tribals in the forests. They could not unite against the urban advanced peoples.
Maybe (just maybe) just someone like Manu who wrote Manusmruti wanted to stop this civil war and stabilise the society which would be for all the warring elements (not only for the winning one). SO he somehow regulated their lives so as not to interfere with the others.
This stopped the civil wars and started a new social structure.

Again, this is just one of the theories.

 

[Pegg]

You need to understand that Hinduism was a culture and not a religion.
Many kingdoms from various parts of Asia involved in it over a period of thousands of years.
One particular race wins against another becomes better. Not necessarily the lightness of the color.
The dark colored just happened to be tribals in the forests. They could not unite against the urban advanced peoples.
Maybe (just maybe) just someone like Manu who wrote Manusmruti wanted to stop this civil war and stabilise the society which would be for all the warring elements (not only for the winning one). SO he somehow regulated their lives so as not to interfere with the others.
This stopped the civil wars and started a new social structure.

Again, this is just one of the theories.

as they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

some other theories put forth come from writers such as Swami Dharm Theertha who wrote in 'The Menace of Hindu Imperialism'
“caste system was soon discovered to be a very effective instrument of domination and exploitation, for keeping the people ignorant in order to make them submissive, and for keeping them weak by increasing divisions among them.”

With regard to Manu, its interesting that there was a time when different castes could intermarry, but that was eventually put a stop to by the set of strict rules introduced by Manu as laid out in the Vedic scriptures. How could anyone view intermarriage as a destabilizing factor for any society??? History has shown that intermarriage among different nations actually works to bring people together....my question is, what do you think his motive was for imposing such a restriction???

 

[Milind2469]

With regard to Manu, its interesting that there was a time when different castes could intermarry, but that was eventually put a stop to by the set of strict rules introduced by Manu as laid out in the Vedic scriptures. How could anyone view intermarriage as a destabilizing factor for any society??? History has shown that intermarriage among different nations actually works to bring people together....my question is, what do you think his motive was for imposing such a restriction???

If the above theory is considered to be true, then it is safe to assume that the ethnically different peoples did not want to intermix themselves. It is like today's religions or races where (at least in Asia) they still oppose out of race or out of religion marriage. So out of caste marriage was opposed too.

Remember they were different races from different areas. Intermixing would have been perceived as threat to the existance of the community. In today's India, Zorostrian community is just 100000 in numbers and in the danger of extinction. Still they do not intermarry (well, there are some exceptions). This is to preserve the "Purity" of the group...to propogate it clean to the next generation.

I don't know how acceptable it has become in the western society. As some gentleman pointed out earlier "It is common".
Well, then I had heard that Boris Becker had disappeared for some days after marrying a black woman.They had received many threat mails.

 

[Kathryn]

It's one thing for people to voluntarily interact with others who share the same interests, background, etc. It's altogether different for people to be PROHIBITED from crossing "social lines."

That's just wrong.