The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[metis]

The word Lord is often used traditionally and misleadingly as a substitute for the tetragrammaton in many translations. Do you know what the Hebrew word for Lord is?

"Adonai", and it is used 450 times in the Tanakh.

As I said in my last post, your positions are all too often nonsensical and often contradictory, and I don't know how much is due to a lack of study or maybe your superficial reading-- or whatever. Either way, it's impossible to take your posts seriously, so I'm no longer going to even try.

 

[firedragon]

The word Lord is often used traditionally and misleadingly as a substitute for the tetragrammaton in many translations. Do you know what the Hebrew word for Lord is?

The Hebrew word for "Lord" is "Adon".

What you are referring to is replacing the lords name with the word lord in the Bible. But that's not the only times the word lord is used, and it is definitely not used misleadingly.

Whereas "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation anyway because there's no hard "J" sound in Hebrew.

In that case Jesus is also a mispronunciation because there is no J used in the New Testament. Its Eesous. And if you are so particular in the pronunciation its not "w" but "v". Vav.

On top of that, since Torah was written minus vowels, we have no clue which vowels should be included and where?

Yeah. Every day we keep hearing this same thing. Though there are no vowels in it, the word comes from the word Havah. When the Jaywalkers of the English language try to impose their arrogance on the Hebrew text without consulting a Jew this happens. There are plenty of Jews here so hopefully someone could shed some light in this discussion.

Cheers.

 

[metis]

What you are referring to is replacing the lords name with the word lord in the Bible. But that's not the only times the word lord is used, and it is definitely not used misleadingly.

Not really a "replacement" as it is used 450 times in the oldest versions. Why the authors chose "Adonai" versus "YHWH" is unknown, but me guess is that the name "YHWY" was considered so holy (special) that other names were chosen to be used most of the time, and "Adonai" is just one of them. This tradition carried over into general practice as "YHWH" was only said by the Temple priests on Yom Kippur at the Temple, and it was not to be written except for the scribes making copies of Torah.

In that case Jesus is also a mispronunciation because there is no J used in the New Testament. Its Eesous. And if you are so particular in the pronunciation its not "w" but "v". Vav.

Jesus' name is more known since it's a slang version of "Joshua" (in English) and means "God saves".

There are plenty of Jews here so hopefully someone could shed some light in this discussion.

Ya, I think I know one quite well.

Cheers.

Ditto back at ya.

 

[firedragon]

Not really a "replacement" as it is used 450 times in the oldest versions.

You said the same thing I said mate.

Why the authors chose "Adonai" versus "YHWH" is unknown, but me guess is that the name "YHWY" was considered so holy (special) that other names were chosen to be used most of the time, and "Adonai" is just one of them. This tradition carried over into general practice as "YHWH" was only said by the Temple priests on Yom Kippur at the Temple, and it was not to be written except for the scribes making copies of Torah.

Nope. Wrong. You are talking about the Greek translation and the theory behind why they replaced YHWH with Kurio everywhere.

The Hebrew scripture in some verses use adonai and YHWH in the same sentence.

Jesus' name is more known since it's a slang version of "Joshua" (in English) and means "God saves".

Err. mate, that's nonsense. Speculation galore.

The Bible only says Eesous. And Eesous or Eesaw are very very common names of the era. And has nothing to do with some slang of Joshua. The English interpretation is Jesus. Its fine, many names are changed into English. But lets not make up things.

 

[metis]

You said the same thing I said mate.



Nope. Wrong. You are talking about the Greek translation and the theory behind why they replaced YHWH with Kurio everywhere.

The Hebrew scripture in some verses use adonai and YHWH in the same sentence.



Err. mate, that's nonsense. Speculation galore.

The Bible only says Eesous. And Eesous or Eesaw are very very common names of the era. And has nothing to do with some slang of Joshua. The English interpretation is Jesus. Its fine, many names are changed into English. But lets not make up things.

Not interested, so believe in what you want to believe, mate.

 

[Katzpur]

You mean you're a JW?

No. JW's do not believe that Jesus is God. I do. I'm LDS.

 

[YoursTrue]

You can always find a Jehovah's witness apologist or one or two scholars who opposes, but it's what do the majority of neutral schalars say, historical records and the scriptures all on one is what counts. Jesus being Michael is an invention that comes from the Watchtower. You have to stop using the JW.org if you want historical and biblical facts. You saw yourself how they misquoted scholars in their literature when I compared their quotes to the actual quotes.

No it's not an "invention" of Jehovah's Witnesses. Again, you need to look at the various comments by some famous theologians long before Jehovah's Witnesses were a group, who realize that Michael certainly can be interwoven wth the Son of God.

 

[YoursTrue]

You mean you're a JW?

Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Arians, anyway.

 

[YoursTrue]

No. JW's do not believe that Jesus is God. I do. I'm LDS.

We believe Jesus is the SON of God. And that the term "God" can be placed on Jesus as shown in the Bible, but not as trinitarians do. Thanks for your comment.

 

[YoursTrue]

You can always find a Jehovah's witness apologist or one or two scholars who opposes, but it's what do the majority of neutral schalars say, historical records and the scriptures all on one is what counts. Jesus being Michael is an invention that comes from the Watchtower. You have to stop using the JW.org if you want historical and biblical facts. You saw yourself how they misquoted scholars in their literature when I compared their quotes to the actual quotes.

Should I believe you? Or the Bible? And look at the surrounding contexts? As noted here, there are those who don't believe Mary was a virgin when holy spirit came upon her. So? What does that mean to you? We have to look at the surrounding verses, and the Bible as a whole. Not make up doctrines.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Hebrew word for "Lord" is "Adon".

What you are referring to is replacing the lords name with the word lord in the Bible. But that's not the only times the word lord is used, and it is definitely not used misleadingly.

It is when the word Lord is substituted for the tetragrammaton. Totally misleading. The four Hebrew letters for the divine name of God the Almighty is spelled YHWH (English letters, of course), not adonai, adon or Lord. Or God. Naturally 'lord' is English. Other languages have other words for lord, similarly as they do for the letters of the tetragrammaton. But they obviously do not mean the same thing, even though YHWH is Lord and God. But it is a misleading translation to substitute Lord or God for the tetragrammaton. Some prefaces of a decent Bible have it in the preface what LORD means. That is "L" with a large capital, and the following 3 letters with small caps. They tell you it is the traditional coverup for the divine name. Thus, they are not being honest to an unwary reader. And some have it even worse, with Lord (large L followed by regular lower case letters).

 

[SLPCCC]

Existing in the form of God
​

• "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness."Philippians 2:6-7

Who, existing in the form of God - Paul says that Jesus existed in the form of God. It does not point to a time when he entered into this state but in agreement with John 1:1 (the word was God) he says that he existed in God's nature. This would not merely be referring to a existence as a spirirt or an angel but to a divine existence. Jesus always existed in this state, as God

Did not consider equality with God something to be grasped - We are to follow Jesus example of humility in serving others although we are all equal. Would Jesus truely be humbling Himself if he was not equal to God. Jesus being equal to God humbled Himself.

He emptied Himself - Notice that it does not says that Jesus was emptied but that He emptied Himself. It also does not say that Jesus stopped being in divine or God (John 1:1). God can never stop being God so Jesus was God-man. Just as he had the form of God He took the form of man.

• I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to me.” Isa. 45:23

• For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philip. 2: 9-11

Paul Quotes from Isa 45:23 and applies it to Jesus at Philip. 2: 9-11. I think it says a lot about Jesus' divinity.

 

[firedragon]

Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Arians, anyway.

Of course not. Why did you say this? He is not JW anyway. He is a Latter Day Saints adherent. I was clarifying his position respectfully.

 

[firedragon]

It is when the word Lord is substituted for the tetragrammaton. Totally misleading. The four Hebrew letters for the divine name of God the Almighty is spelled YHWH (English letters, of course), not adonai, adon or Lord. Or God. Naturally 'lord' is English. Other languages have other words for lord, similarly as they do for the letters of the tetragrammaton. But they obviously do not mean the same thing, even though YHWH is Lord and God. But it is a misleading translation to substitute Lord or God for the tetragrammaton. Some prefaces of a decent Bible have it in the preface what LORD means. That is "L" with a large capital, and the following 3 letters with small caps. They tell you it is the traditional coverup for the divine name. Thus, they are not being honest to an unwary reader. And some have it even worse, with Lord (large L followed by regular lower case letters).

Yeah, there are no caps or simples in the Hebrew bible.

You mean you are talking about some translation. But you see as a Bible reader everyone with a little bit of time knows that some translations have replaced the 4 letters with Lord so if you know what it is that's it. It is not that they are being dishonest but they are doing what the Greek translation of the septuagint did.

So its easy. If you want to go to the original learn Hebrew. Or just know what the bible is.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Existing in the form of God
​

• "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness."Philippians 2:6-7

Who, existing in the form of God - Paul says that Jesus existed in the form of God. It does not point to a time when he entered into this state but in agreement with John 1:1 (the word was God) he says that he existed in God's nature. This would not merely be referring to a existence as a spirirt or an angel but to a divine existence. Jesus always existed in this state, as God

Did not consider equality with God something to be grasped - We are to follow Jesus example of humility in serving others although we are all equal. Would Jesus truely be humbling Himself if he was not equal to God. Jesus being equal to God humbled Himself.

He emptied Himself - Notice that it does not says that Jesus was emptied but that He emptied Himself. It also does not say that Jesus stopped being in divine or God (John 1:1). God can never stop being God so Jesus was God-man. Just as he had the form of God He took the form of man.

• I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to me.” Isa. 45:23

• For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philip. 2: 9-11

Paul Quotes from Isa 45:23 and applies it to Jesus at Philip. 2: 9-11. I think it says a lot about Jesus' divinity.

The Christ Hymn in Philippians is a proof that belief in Christ's divinity existed very early in Christianity.

"... existed in the form of God". God is by definition (spirit) beyond form although (in the Bible) he manifested/revealed himself through different forms.

"Equality with God". To Jews (and Tanakh) this is a blasphemy because no one can be equal to God. Jesus is here presented not as a second person of one God but someone equal to God.

So what was the base of this belief? Jesus appearing in visions after his death? Or did Jesus himself claimed so (earlier)?

 

[Katzpur]

We believe Jesus is the SON of God. And that the term "God" can be placed on Jesus as shown in the Bible, but not as trinitarians do. Thanks for your comment.

Are you a JW? If so, I'm glad to hear that Jesus can be referred to as "God" as well as His Father. I've never heard a JW acknowledge that before.

 

[YoursTrue]

Are you a JW? If so, I'm glad to hear that Jesus can be referred to as "God" as well as His Father. I've never heard a JW acknowledge that before.

Jesus was spoken in exclamation by Thomas as, "My Lord and my God," but this does not mean that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. There is only one Almighty God. Here is a fine explanation of it, you will find it at Is Jesus Christ God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, there are no caps or simples in the Hebrew bible.

You mean you are talking about some translation. But you see as a Bible reader everyone with a little bit of time knows that some translations have replaced the 4 letters with Lord so if you know what it is that's it. It is not that they are being dishonest but they are doing what the Greek translation of the septuagint did.

So its easy. If you want to go to the original learn Hebrew. Or just know what the bible is.

Many people, I have found, do not understand what LORD signifies in the Bible. And then it becomes a problem because there are many differences about using that name that it signifies among translators.

 

[YoursTrue]

We believe Jesus is the SON of God. And that the term "God" can be placed on Jesus as shown in the Bible, but not as trinitarians do. Thanks for your comment.

Are you a JW? If so, I'm glad to hear that Jesus can be referred to as "God" as well as His Father. I've never heard a JW acknowledge that before.

May I ask how you consider this, I mean, what position do you think Jesus occupies, and do you consider him God? If someone were to say to me, "I believe Jesus is God," I may mention that there is only one Almighty God, and Jesus is His Son. For starters. But again, that Jesus did not correct Thomas when he said to the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God," does not mean that he or Jesus thought that he was the Almighty God. I hope this clarifies a little bit.

 

[firedragon]

Many people, I have found, do not understand what LORD signifies in the Bible. And then it becomes a problem because there are many differences about using that name that it signifies among translators.

True.