The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[Katzpur]

Jesus was spoken in exclamation by Thomas as, "My Lord and my God," but this does not mean that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. There is only one Almighty God. Here is a fine explanation of it, you will find it at Is Jesus Christ God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY.

Thanks, but no thanks. I have about as much interest in basing my theology on what the Watchtower says as you would have in basing yours on what The Book of Mormons says. It appears as if we're simply have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Katzpur]

May I ask how you consider this, I mean, what position do you think Jesus occupies, and do you consider him God? If someone were to say to me, "I believe Jesus is God," I may mention that there is only one Almighty God, and Jesus is His Son. For starters. But again, that Jesus did not correct Thomas when he said to the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God," does not mean that he or Jesus thought that he was the Almighty God. I hope this clarifies a little bit.

I am quite sure that Jesus knew He was not the same individual as His Father. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, but that it is His Father's will that He shares in everything the Father has -- including the title of "God."

 

[YoursTrue]

You can always find a Jehovah's witness apologist or one or two scholars who opposes, but it's what do the majority of neutral schalars say, historical records and the scriptures all on one is what counts. Jesus being Michael is an invention that comes from the Watchtower. You have to stop using the JW.org if you want historical and biblical facts. You saw yourself how they misquoted scholars in their literature when I compared their quotes to the actual quotes.

Question - Who were Daniel's people? Daniel 12:1.
"At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered."
So who were Daniel's people? You are familiar with that scripture, aren't you?

 

[YoursTrue]

Thanks, but no thanks. I have about as much interest in basing my theology on what the Watchtower says as you would have in basing yours on what The Book of Mormons says. It appears as if we're simply have to agree to disagree here.

OK, but I would like to know who you believe Jesus is, whether he was in heaven with God before he came to the earth, leaving God his Father for a while. What do you believe as a person, perhaps not as a Mormon, but as a human being? I can tell you what I believe and I agree with the reasoning in that article. Do you agree that in the Bible the term God can be applied to various entities? As I have explained, there is only one ALMIGHTY GOD. And Jesus is not it. He is the powerful SON OF GOD, given power and glory by his Father. Thus, when the term God is used I generally think of the ALMIGHTY GOD. Not Jesus. Although -- he is a God. A mighty God. But not the ALmighty God. Hope this helps to clarify.

 

[YoursTrue]

I am quite sure that Jesus knew He was not the same individual as His Father. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, but that it is His Father's will that He shares in everything the Father has -- including the title of "God."

Oh, thank you. I answered you (or asked you) in another text before I read this one. Of course, the Father did not die. Jesus did.

 

[YoursTrue]

I am quite sure that Jesus knew He was not the same individual as His Father. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, but that it is His Father's will that He shares in everything the Father has -- including the title of "God."

Of course you're not saying he made himself God, are you?

 

[Katzpur]

OK, but I would like to know who you believe Jesus is, whether he was in heaven with God before he came to the earth, leaving God his Father for a while. What do you believe as a person, perhaps not as a Mormon, but as a human being? I can tell you what I believe and I agree with the reasoning in that article. Do you agree that in the Bible the term God can be applied to various entities? As I have explained, there is only one ALMIGHTY GOD. And Jesus is not it. He is the powerful SON OF GOD, given power and glory by his Father. Thus, when the term God is used I generally think of the ALMIGHTY GOD. Not Jesus. Although -- he is a God. A mighty God. But not the ALmighty God. Hope this helps to clarify.

I guess we're maybe closer in understanding than I'd assumed. When I think of "God," I generally also think of God the Father, or the Almighty God, and not of Jesus. I believe that Jesus was, in fact, with His Father before coming to earth. I believe that He created our universe, but acting under His Father's direction. As He said, "I do nothing of myself." He did His Father's will in all things and as John 13:3 states: "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God." I believe that God, our Eternal Father in Heaven has given His Only Begotten Son all that He has, including (as John 5:26 states) the ability to have life in himself. That's something none of the rest of us can claim.

I believe that the Bible does refer to beings other than the Almighty God as "gods," but that when capitalized, the word "God" usually refers to the Almighty God, but that it can and does occasionally refer to Jesus Christ, since I believe one of the things the Father gave His Son, was the right to the title, "God" (with a capitalized 'G'). I don't believe Jesus was merely a "god" (i.e. a divine being of some sort) but that He was part of the Godhead referred to in the Bible. When I say, "Godhead," I do not mean "Trinity." I do not believe in three persons in a single substance who are all co-equal. I believe that the Father is greater than the Son, that He always has been and always will be. And when I use the term, "God," I am also most often thinking of the Almighty God. So, like you (I suspect), I don't believe the Father and the Son are one and the same. I believe they are two distinct beings. That said, I do not believe it is inaccurate to refer to Jesus as "God."

 

[Katzpur]

Of course you're not saying he made himself God, are you?

No, I'm not.

 

[YoursTrue]

I guess we're maybe closer in understanding than I'd assumed. When I think of "God," I generally also think of God the Father, or the Almighty God, and not of Jesus. I believe that Jesus was, in fact, with His Father before coming to earth. I believe that He created our universe, but acting under His Father's direction. As He said, "I do nothing of myself." He did His Father's will in all things and as John 13:3 states: "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God." I believe that God, our Eternal Father in Heaven has given His Only Begotten Son all that He has, including (as John 5:26 states) the ability to have life in himself. That's something none of the rest of us can claim.

I believe that the Bible does refer to beings other than the Almighty God as "gods," but that when capitalized, the word "God" usually refers to the Almighty God, but that it can and does occasionally refer to Jesus Christ, since I believe one of the things the Father gave His Son, was the right to the title, "God" (with a capitalized 'G'). I don't believe Jesus was merely a "god" (i.e. a divine being of some sort) but that He was part of the Godhead referred to in the Bible. When I say, "Godhead," I do not mean "Trinity." I do not believe in three persons in a single substance who are all co-equal. I believe that the Father is greater than the Son, that He always has been and always will be. And when I use the term, "God," I am also most often thinking of the Almighty God. So, like you (I suspect), I don't believe the Father and the Son are one and the same. I believe they are two distinct beings. That said, I do not believe it is inaccurate to refer to Jesus as "God."

We're close, but when I speak of God I am speaking of Jesus' Father (in heaven, of course), but I know the title "a God," or "Mighty God" can be aptly applied to Jesus. If someone says, let's say, that Jesus is God I won't look for an argument but I again don't think that Thomas meant Jesus is God in the superlative sense. That's about it for now. Have a good evening, nice talking with youj, thanks for your input.

 

[Katzpur]

We're close, but when I speak of God I am speaking of Jesus' Father (in heaven, of course), but I know the title "a God," or "Mighty God" can be aptly applied to Jesus. If someone says, let's say, that Jesus is God I won't look for an argument but I again don't think that Thomas meant Jesus is God in the superlative sense. That's about it for now. Have a good evening, nice talking with youj, thanks for your input.

I don't believe Thomas meant that Jesus was God Almighty, either, but I believe he did recognize that Jesus was not just a mere mortal. I believe he was, in fact, addressing Jesus as his Lord and God, because he finally understood who Jesus was. He would, however, have still held "God, Jesus' Father" as the Supreme Being who continues to reign even over Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't believe Thomas meant that Jesus was God Almighty, either, but I believe he did recognize that Jesus was not just a mere mortal. I believe he was, in fact, addressing Jesus as his Lord and God, because he finally understood who Jesus was. He would, however, have still held "God, Jesus' Father" as the Supreme Being who continues to reign even over Jesus.

OK, I see your point. Some would say Thomas was astonished and used the expression, "My God" as an exclamation. However, after spending time with Jesus, seeing the miracles he performed, and witnessing the resurrected Jesus, he realized (finally) the great Personage Jesus was (is). That's how I see it. But, since Jesus said he had a God, that means that Jesus had a God.
New International Version
"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Now that I'm looking at it again -- thanks for that -- he, Jesus, says: my Father and your Father. So his Father is the disciples' Father also.

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus was spoken in exclamation by Thomas as, "My Lord and my God," but this does not mean that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. There is only one Almighty God. Here is a fine explanation of it, you will find it at Is Jesus Christ God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY.

I don't understand how a person can ignore the dishonesty in the Watchtower publications and at the same time believe everything they say. It must be cognitive dissonance. A defensive strategy. That's why even though the JWs falsely predicted the end many times in the past. There are still those who keep believing.

 

[SLPCCC]

Question - Who were Daniel's people? Daniel 12:1.
"At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered."
So who were Daniel's people? You are familiar with that scripture, aren't you?

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael. But you believe that because the Jehovah's Witness taught you it through their publications. They don't derive the Truth from the scriptures. They force their indoctrinations onto the scriptures. See their deceptions? Start by seeing that the bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael.

 

[Katzpur]

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael. But you believe that because the Jehovah's Witness taught you it through their publications. They don't derive the Truth from the scriptures. They force their indoctrinations onto the scriptures. See their deceptions? Start by seeing that the bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael.

Trust me, I am not posting this to support JW's beliefs, because I do NOT share them. But while it is a fact that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael, the Bible also does not teach that all spiritual truth is contained within its pages. To insist that this is the case would be...

a case of cognitive dissonance.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't believe Thomas meant that Jesus was God Almighty, either, but I believe he did recognize that Jesus was not just a mere mortal. I believe he was, in fact, addressing Jesus as his Lord and God, because he finally understood who Jesus was. He would, however, have still held "God, Jesus' Father" as the Supreme Being who continues to reign even over Jesus.

There's more to it, but

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael. But you believe that because the Jehovah's Witness taught you it through their publications. They don't derive the Truth from the scriptures. They force their indoctrinations onto the scriptures. See their deceptions? Start by seeing that the bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael.

Again, you haven't answered the question. It's fairly simple, really. Who were Daniel's people?

 

[YoursTrue]

Trust me, I am not posting this to support JW's beliefs, because I do NOT share them. But while it is a fact that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael, the Bible also does not teach that all spiritual truth is contained within its pages. To insist that this is the case would be...

a case of cognitive dissonance.

While I understand your concern, the book of Daniel speaks of Daniel's people. Who were Daniel's people? It's fairly simple really. But I see neither you nor SPLCCC want to answer. Interesting...

 

[SLPCCC]

...I know the title "a God," or "Mighty God" can be aptly applied to Jesus. If someone says, let's say, that Jesus is God I won't look for an argument but I again don't think that Thomas meant Jesus is God in the superlative sense. ..

I think you contradict yourself. You know Jesus is called God, but you are forcing the JW teaching and their beliefs onto the scriptures. The meaning of the scriptures taken together is clear and unambiguous, and plain. Jesus is called God in the scriptures. Again, the only way around it is to engage in mental gymnastics.

 

[SLPCCC]

Trust me, I am not posting this to support JW's beliefs, because I do NOT share them. But while it is a fact that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael, the Bible also does not teach that all spiritual truth is contained within its pages. To insist that this is the case would be...

a case of cognitive dissonance.

I don't believe that all spiritual truth is contained within its pages. That's why I also look at traditions, writings of the early church fathers, historical records, etc.

 

[SLPCCC]

There's more to it, but

Again, you haven't answered the question. It's fairly simple, really. Who were Daniel's people?

I don't know tell us.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't believe Thomas meant that Jesus was God Almighty, either, but I believe he did recognize that Jesus was not just a mere mortal. I believe he was, in fact, addressing Jesus as his Lord and God, because he finally understood who Jesus was. He would, however, have still held "God, Jesus' Father" as the Supreme Being who continues to reign even over Jesus.

There's more to it, but

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael. But you believe that because the Jehovah's Witness taught you it through their publications. They don't derive the Truth from the scriptures. They force their indoctrinations onto the scriptures. See their deceptions? Start by seeing that the bible does not teach that Jesus is Michael.

No it doesn't say that explicitly "Jesus is Michael." But many scholars who are not Jehovah's Witnesses realize Jesus is Michael depending on context and application. Not all agree, however.